Super Bowl?

[FZR1KG]

Funny, I always thought the USA was founded on nationalism, war, conquest and division between races.
The English fighting the French fighting the Spanish and all fighting the indigenous population for ownership of land.
Add to that slavery. I'm surprised it hasn't already ripped itself apart.
Living in back water redneckville hasn't done much to change that impression either, considering the MIL was born only about 60 miles south from here and is considered a foreigner where we live. I expected me to be considered a foreigner but the MIL, a born and raised Virginian about an hour's drive away?

*edited to add*

I remember the cheerio's commercial but haven't seen the coke one.

[Rommie]

Yeah, I'm not sure about how much it's been covered in the US but I can't see much evidence of people getting upset beyond the stuff people pulled from Twitter. Seeing as this happens for every non-controversy lately (racist hicks are easy to find via Twitter searches!) I'm just gonna put it down to the media wanting hits on their pages rather than something a sizable percentage of people are genuinely concerned about.

That said, I'm sure Coke knew it was going to happen, and it'd up their sales overall. Plus they are the guys who want to buy the world a Coke...

[SciFiFisher]

See, I don't care about singing America the Beautiful in 50 different languages. I am ok with that. I thought it was done beautifully. I don't mind that people want to come here and keep some of their culture alive. I don't mind if they want to speak a second language in their homes.

I do object to having to print documents in 50 different languages and pay for interpreters to interpret over 50 different languages because someone has decided that it's ok to immigrate to the US and enjoy all the benefits of living here while refusing to learn the predominant language of the country.

We run into this in healthcare all the time. Patients who have lived here 25 years and refuse to learn English. and we are forced to learn their language in order to take care of them. To me that says you are insisting that we become the country you left behind. And I have a problem with that. If I wanted to live in France I would move to France and learn French. I would immerse myself in the French culture and become a naturalized Frenchman. I wouldn't live in France for 25 years and insist that everyone learn English and start cooking food just like they serve in Denny's just so I would feel like I was at home.

Every time this topic comes up I am reminded of the story of the tower of babel. It's probably a parable but it illustrates the point quite well. When people can communicate (i.e. speak the same language) they can aspire to reach new heights. When everyone speaks a different language and no one can understand each other all you get is chaos.

[SciFi Chick]

What he said.

[FZR1KG]

^
|
The rednecks agree.
I will add though that it's also up to the community here not to isolate anyone new coming in.
When that happens it creates a divide from day one that will take decades to resolve.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I disagree. I see no reason you shouldn't be able to use whatever language you choose.

I imagine this is related to the cultural difference I was talking about. A great deal of what Fisher said is exactly the melting-pot model.

Not judging, just saying that cultural norms are different here.

[pumpkinpi]

Fisher,
I support what you say in both the first and second paragraphs. Yes immigrants becoming a citizen should learn our language. But for that to be a justification for, not necessarily you, but for people to complain about the Coca Cola ad makes no sense to me. they should respect us by learning our language, but we should not disrespect them by saying they can't speak their language here.

[SciFiFisher]

I disagree. I see no reason you shouldn't be able to use whatever language you choose.

I imagine this is related to the cultural difference I was talking about. A great deal of what Fisher said is exactly the melting-pot model.

Not judging, just saying that cultural norms are different here.

Canada apparently has been able to keep 50 different languages and still have a reasonable discourse. Well, except for maybe Quebec.
But, when I look at other places that have insisted that they must maintain ethnic and cultural divides I see a lot of strife and violence. The U.S. has had it's share of discord and non-agreement but we also have an amazing history of becoming a rather homogenous group about central issues. I believe that one of the reasons for that was the somewhat tumultuous democratic process we insisted on everyone being able to participate in. But, one of the main reasons we could do that was because we all insisted on speaking a common language. We are and were a nation built by immigrants but the one thing that allowed them all to speak to each other and that bound them into that democratic process was the fact that there was only one language that all those diverse peoples could speak to each other. They may have spoken German, Italian, Chinese, Spanish, or even Russian at home. But, in school and at political rallies they all spoke one language. That language was American English.

[SciFiFisher]

Fisher,
I support what you say in both the first and second paragraphs. Yes immigrants becoming a citizen should learn our language. But for that to be a justification for, not necessarily you, but for people to complain about the Coca Cola ad makes no sense to me. they should respect us by learning our language, but we should not disrespect them by saying they can't speak their language here.

Thank you.

[FZR1KG]

I disagree. I see no reason you shouldn't be able to use whatever language you choose.

I imagine this is related to the cultural difference I was talking about. A great deal of what Fisher said is exactly the melting-pot model.

Not judging, just saying that cultural norms are different here.

We may be talking different things here and really agreeing. If not:

You can choose any language to communicate with privately but officially it should be standardised.
Do you seriously want 147 forms of every government paperwork to cater for every country?
Or require that teachers to teach in a language that the parents want their child to learn their schooling with?
It's quite simply not practical. Language is meant to enhance communication. By not having an official language communication stops.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Government services here are, nation-wide, almost always provided in English and French. In areas with significant linguistic minorities services are provided in those languages as well. Here is a bilingual stop sign in the far north. Here is a street sign in downtown Toronto. Here is a Canadian federal government office that provides services in Cantonese and Mandarin in Vancouver.

Hell, there is a constitutional guarantee, when it comes to English and French, to minority language education rights.

All of this is how the country is run right now. Services are provided at reasonable cost and bother. I have never experienced a problem as a result of them, and am happy to pay for them with my tax dollars.

The system is entirely practical. Works fine.

As I said: I have a different perspective on all this. The culture is different here. Same goes for guns and capital punishment. There are differences between Canada and the US.

[FZR1KG]

You have schools in various languages?

[geonuc]

Fisher,
I support what you say in both the first and second paragraphs. Yes immigrants becoming a citizen should learn our language. But for that to be a justification for, not necessarily you, but for people to complain about the Coca Cola ad makes no sense to me. they should respect us by learning our language, but we should not disrespect them by saying they can't speak their language here.

^^^^ I endorse this endorsement.

Canuck, we all have different perspectives. You say Canada functions fine with French & English, and with some certain services offered in other languages. I'm somewhat skeptical based on the mood in French-speaking Quebec. It seems Canada is more like two countries forced to operate with one central government (much like the US and Texas.)

But even leaving that aside, how far can a society go to accommodate multiple languages? You have two. Would it be so easy with five? Or even three? Imagine all the signs and other things with Spanish added.

[Rommie]

You have schools in various languages?

The US did too until WW1 made being a foreigner unpopular... and still does in many American Indian communities (and I know the Amish often just do Pennsylvania Dutch in PA in their schools). It was not at all uncommon in the 20th century to travel across the US and run into communities where those people were born in the US but only spoke German, next town over only spoke Swedish, etc.

Mind I find this discussion all interesting as I moved to a country where I decidedly do not speak the local language fluently, but no one seriously minds as they all speak English. Not saying I understand all the forms I've signed or could be a Dutch citizen, but all the Dutch keep telling me it's not worth my making a huge effort to learn their language if I'm out of here in a few years anyway (including my boss). Thought it was weird and borderline rude to not learn it until I moved here, when you realize how much of a non-issue it is.

I will also note that there is a "learn Dutch if you move here" movement but it takes all of two sentences for these folks to show they don't mean me, they just mean the wrong sorts of immigrants with brown skin or from Eastern Europe. Tolerance!

[The Supreme Canuck]

You have schools in various languages?

Yes. English and French, mostly, though there are many schools in native communities that teach in native languages.

Canuck, we all have different perspectives. You say Canada functions fine with French & English, and with some certain services offered in other languages. I'm somewhat skeptical based on the mood in French-speaking Quebec. It seems Canada is more like two countries forced to operate with one central government (much like the US and Texas.)

Different issue. To reduce it to "those Canadians have two official languages, so that's why there's problems with Quebec" is to greatly oversimplify. It ignores centuries of history and politics. Trust me when I say that's not the issue.

By way of example, look at New Brunswick. It's an officially bilingual province, and has very large anglophone and francophone communities. They don't have the same issues as Quebec, despite a similar language situation. They don't have all the Quebec baggage that is the real issue. Different thing entirely, I assure you.

Or, hell, look at Ontario. Large anglophone and francophone communities, services in multiple languages - my city is even officially bilingual. No Quebec-style problems here. Again: language is not the issue with Quebec. It's linked to the issue, but it is not the issue itself.

The actual issue is ethnic nationalism brought on, in large part, by attempts by the British colonial government, and then the Canadian government, to assimilate the Quebecois population in exactly the way I'm arguing against. Telling them they can't speak French, can't be Catholic, can't use their civil law, can't hold government positions - can't have their own culture and must, instead, adopt the dominant Canadian culture. Saying "You're in Canada, so act Canadian and stop trying to force everyone to accommodate you. Cut it out with the French - we don't do that here. If you don't like it, leave."

Backfired, didn't it?

But even leaving that aside, how far can a society go to accommodate multiple languages? You have two. Would it be so easy with five? Or even three? Imagine all the signs and other things with Spanish added.

How far? As far as is reasonable given linguistic groups in an area. Yes, that requires judgment rather than a bright-line rule... but luckily, people are capable of exercising judgment.

"Oh, lots of people here speak Inuktitut? Maybe offer services in that language. Punjabi over there? Do the same for them."

Simple.

As I said, that's how it works right now. And it does work.

[The Supreme Canuck]

The US did too until WW1 made being a foreigner unpopular... and still does in many American Indian communities (and I know the Amish often just do Pennsylvania Dutch in PA in their schools). It was not at all uncommon in the 20th century to travel across the US and run into communities where those people were born in the US but only spoke German, next town over only spoke Swedish, etc.

Actually, this reminds me of something that I think is an important point that we're missing: people will, without being forced, tend to adopt the majority language in their region. It happened in the US (How many Swedish towns are there these days? How many of them were forced to abandon their language? How many did so naturally?) and it happened in Canada. Still happens in both places, in fact.

For example, Nova Scotia was settled in large part by Scots driven from the Highlands during the clearances. Many of them spoke only Gaelic. So there was a large Gaelic-speaking community in Nova Scotia. The largest outside of Scotland, in fact. But these days? There are no unilingual Gaelic communities. Why? Did the government force them to learn English? No. There was no coercion. It was a good idea for them and their children to learn English, so they did. No need to place governmental impediments in their way to try to bend them into the majority culture. It just happens when you leave people to their own devices. You can see the same thing with first generation immigrants from Asia, for example - their kids learn English (or French). Because it's a good idea and they want their kids to be able to do so.

There's no actual problem here; these things solve themselves.

Of course, when you actually try to force linguistic and cultural minorities to assimilate, you get pushback. Strong pushback. You end up with the Quebec situation. And the native situation (that's not really about fracking; it's about native sovereignty).

Rather than solving problems of integration, forced assimilation of linguistic and cultural minorities causes those minorities to dig in, separate themselves from the majority culture rather than integrate, and cause strife. But if you leave them alone, that doesn't happen. They get to do whatever they want, and eventually, naturally come to be integrated in a way beneficial to both cultures.

Edit: Once again, that's how we do things up here. It's the dominant attitude up here. I'm really not trying to tell you folks what to do in your own country - that's not for me to do. You have a different approach to these things, and that's fine. I'm just trying to explain my perspective, not pass judgment.

[SciFi Chick]

America the Beautiful written by a prominent socialist lesbian.