FWIS3

Or - Explaining white privilege to a poor white person.

Really good article.

^^^ That is a good article. Thanks.

I like the explanation of Intersectionality. But, I am not convinced that my "privilege" comes from the fact that I am a white middle class male so much as it comes from the fact that I am an educated middle class person.

I'm tired of being made to feel guilty for my existence and for things over which I had no control.

Umm, did you actually read what she had to say about guilt?

Swift wrote:I'm tired of being made to feel guilty for my existence and for things over which I had no control.

I have to agree with GJ. The article addresses guilt. You should feel no guilt whatsoever. But if you understand the inherent privilege you've had, it should make you less judgmental of those who had more to overcome (assuming you were judgmental to begin with).

I saw a comic that summed it up nicely. A teacher put a trash can in the front of the classroom. Then, he gave everyone a piece of paper and told them to crumple it up. The next goal was to toss it into the trash can, but you had to do it from wherever you were sitting in the classroom. Naturally, everyone in the back felt it was unfair, because it was unfair. More people in the front of the room got their paper into the trash can then people from the back of the room.

The people in the front of the room should not feel any guilt as they didn't know what would happen when they sat in those chairs. But it doesn't change the fact that they had it easier. Does that make sense?

To put it another way - you're tired of feeling guilty for what you consider "so-called privilege". Well, I'm tired of feeling guilty for not being as successful as those with privilege, as though it's my own fault that I wasn't born with that privilege.

SciFiFisher wrote:I like the explanation of Intersectionality. But, I am not convinced that my "privilege" comes from the fact that I am a white middle class male so much as it comes from the fact that I am an educated middle class person.

The premise here is that it was easier for you to become an educated middle class person because you were born into the middle class as a white male. You had it easier than a woman in the same position, and you had it much easier than a woman in poverty. But you shouldn't feel guilty about this fact - just be aware of it. See my post to swift.

SciFi Chick wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:I like the explanation of Intersectionality. But, I am not convinced that my "privilege" comes from the fact that I am a white middle class male so much as it comes from the fact that I am an educated middle class person.

The premise here is that it was easier for you to become an educated middle class person because you were born into the middle class as a white male. You had it easier than a woman in the same position, and you had it much easier than a woman in poverty. But you shouldn't feel guilty about this fact - just be aware of it. See my post to swift.

I don't feel guilty. I guess I should have clarified. I was not born into the middle class. I came from poor working class white "trash". When people start telling me how privileged I am to have been born white I have to throttle the urge to explain to them how utterly stupid they are for assuming that my family or myself had it "easy" because we were white. I don't ever recall being homeless but we moved a lot and more than once we lived with grandma. While we never actually starved I can't tell you how many times dinner was pancakes and home made syrup made from sugar and water. Or Indian fry bread. It's amazing how many things you can make from cheap flour, salt, sugar, and lard.

My being privileged means that every opportunity that I have had means that I have had to work harder or smarter than the so called "disadvantaged". For example, while "disadvantaged" people got a totally free college education I was forced to take out somewhere in the neighborhood of $80,000 in student loans over the years to pay for my masters degree. And the primary reason for not getting a totally free ride in college wasn't because I wasn't broke enough.

I became a middle class person because I was willing to work for it. It may have been easier for me because my mother who mostly raised 5 children as a single widowed mother was willing to sacrifice a lot. She made sure all 5 of us stayed in school and got a basic education and graduated from high school. Which means she was strong, loving, and willing to say no when she had to. None of that had anything with being white.

So, no matter how times people explain to me how privileged I am for being a white male I have to stop, listen to the explanation, and simply say "why bless your heart, I am sure you mean well".

Swift wrote:I'm tired of being made to feel guilty for my existence and for things over which I had no control.

Me three. I also think that discussions of privilege generally tend to swing between statements of the bleeding obvious and the use of the word as a weapon against people to dismiss their opinions in a display of argumentum ad hominem.

squ1d wrote:

Swift wrote:I'm tired of being made to feel guilty for my existence and for things over which I had no control.

Me three. I also think that discussions of privilege generally tend to swing between statements of the bleeding obvious and the use of the word as a weapon against people to dismiss their opinions in a display of argumentum ad hominem.

Did you read the article or my response to swift? I mean, to me, privilege is nothing more than a comparison of who has it generally easier in society. It's similar to a man's strength vs. a woman's strength. Say my husband can carry 50KG and I can only carry 25KG. That means, if we have 50KG of groceries in the car, I have to work harder to carry it to the house than he does. That's nothing for him to feel guilty about, but it takes more work for me to do it than it does for him. Why are we not allowed to acknowledge these things?

SciFiFisher wrote:
So, no matter how times people explain to me how privileged I am for being a white male I have to stop, listen to the explanation, and simply say "why bless your heart, I am sure you mean well".

Here's the thing - in our society, no matter how hard your circumstances were, if you put a woman or a minority male in the same situation, they have all the obstacles you had along with the obstacles of things like not being taken seriously because of being female, or getting stopped by cops for driving while black. There really is a difference. Why is this so hard to grasp?

SciFi Chick wrote:Did you read the article or my response to swift? I mean, to me, privilege is nothing more than a comparison of who has it generally easier in society. It's similar to a man's strength vs. a woman's strength. Say my husband can carry 50KG and I can only carry 25KG. That means, if we have 50KG of groceries in the car, I have to work harder to carry it to the house than he does. That's nothing for him to feel guilty about, but it takes more work for me to do it than it does for him. Why are we not allowed to acknowledge these things?

I feel like this post needs a 'Like' button...

Guys: nobody is saying that you have it easy.

As the article says, there are different kinds privilege people can have, by being included in one or another group. Different kinds of privilege are not necessarily equivalent, or even similar.

Seriously, just read the article, it does a better job explaining this.

Gullible Jones wrote:Umm, did you actually read what she had to say about guilt?

I did. I think she is a tiny majority of people who believe such a thing (that I shouldn't feel guilty). I think guilt is most people's favorite currency.

I think a lot of people use the term "privilege" as a weapon - "Don't feel guilty, but look how much better/easier you had it than I did".

As soon as one gets into such a discussion it becomes, "yes, I'm white, but I had this problem or that problem I had to overcome". It becomes a battle of who had it worse ("uphill, both ways, in a blizzard..."); a discussion I dislike as much as "who had it better".

I'm tired of us (humans) classifying individuals as groups. I'm tired of being judged as a white, middle-class, middle-aged male, as if that says everything about me; I'm as tired of it as a young, 20-something black male must be of being judged by how he appears.

I'm tired of this whole debate and the search for misery. And I obviously need to get out of this thread...

SciFi Chick wrote:

Swift wrote:I'm tired of being made to feel guilty for my existence and for things over which I had no control.

I have to agree with GJ. The article addresses guilt. You should feel no guilt whatsoever. But if you understand the inherent privilege you've had, it should make you less judgmental of those who had more to overcome (assuming you were judgmental to begin with).

I saw a comic that summed it up nicely. A teacher put a trash can in the front of the classroom. Then, he gave everyone a piece of paper and told them to crumple it up. The next goal was to toss it into the trash can, but you had to do it from wherever you were sitting in the classroom. Naturally, everyone in the back felt it was unfair, because it was unfair. More people in the front of the room got their paper into the trash can then people from the back of the room.

The people in the front of the room should not feel any guilt as they didn't know what would happen when they sat in those chairs. But it doesn't change the fact that they had it easier. Does that make sense?

To put it another way - you're tired of feeling guilty for what you consider "so-called privilege". Well, I'm tired of feeling guilty for not being as successful as those with privilege, as though it's my own fault that I wasn't born with that privilege.

And, to stretch the analogy to diaphonosity, what if that were the final exam? Y'all had been practicing all semester, from all distances, and then your final grade was decided on that day from that seat. And you got to go to graduate school to hone your balling skills, while those losers in those back seats got to eat theirs. And they ended up constipated and cranky, and everybody said hey I worked hard, don't complain to me.

I'm not pointing any fingers, I'm just trying to see how far out I can sling this stuff.

SciFi Chick wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:
So, no matter how times people explain to me how privileged I am for being a white male I have to stop, listen to the explanation, and simply say "why bless your heart, I am sure you mean well".

Here's the thing - in our society, no matter how hard your circumstances were, if you put a woman or a minority male in the same situation, they have all the obstacles you had along with the obstacles of things like not being taken seriously because of being female, or getting stopped by cops for driving while black. There really is a difference. Why is this so hard to grasp?

I don't have a problem grasping it. I even liked her explanation of intersectionality. It made sense as a good way to explain the concept of "white privilege". I actually agree that others may have had disadvantages that I did not and may not have been aware of. What bothers me is that people then use this argument to justify what appears to be an injustice. For example, the fact that no matter how poor I was I was never going to be given a free college education because I was a white male. All because of the bias that I would be able to pay back student loans easier than a similarly disadvantaged minority.

SciFi Chick wrote:

squ1d wrote:

Swift wrote:I'm tired of being made to feel guilty for my existence and for things over which I had no control.

Me three. I also think that discussions of privilege generally tend to swing between statements of the bleeding obvious and the use of the word as a weapon against people to dismiss their opinions in a display of argumentum ad hominem.

Did you read the article or my response to swift? I mean, to me, privilege is nothing more than a comparison of who has it generally easier in society. It's similar to a man's strength vs. a woman's strength. Say my husband can carry 50KG and I can only carry 25KG. That means, if we have 50KG of groceries in the car, I have to work harder to carry it to the house than he does. That's nothing for him to feel guilty about, but it takes more work for me to do it than it does for him. Why are we not allowed to acknowledge these things?

Yes, I did read the article and your response. You are allowed to acknowledge these things, that mainly constitute statements of the bleeding obvious, such as your groceries analogy. Did you read what I wrote?

Gullible Jones wrote:
I feel like this post needs a 'Like' button...

Guys: nobody is saying that you have it easy.

Strawman

As the article says, there are different kinds privilege people can have, by being included in one or another group. Different kinds of privilege are not necessarily equivalent, or even similar.

Statements of the bleeding obvious

Seriously, just read the article, it does a better job explaining this.

I did

Swift wrote:I think a lot of people use the term "privilege" as a weapon - "Don't feel guilty, but look how much better/easier you had it than I did".

As soon as one gets into such a discussion it becomes, "yes, I'm white, but I had this problem or that problem I had to overcome". It becomes a battle of who had it worse ("uphill, both ways, in a blizzard..."); a discussion I dislike as much as "who had it better".

I'm tired of us (humans) classifying individuals as groups. I'm tired of being judged as a white, middle-class, middle-aged male, as if that says everything about me; I'm as tired of it as a young, 20-something black male must be of being judged by how he appears.

I'm tired of this whole debate and the search for misery. And I obviously need to get out of this thread...

Me three!