FWIS3

Finally someone had the COJONES (I love using Spanish swearwords when speaking in English ) to say it.

Who Goes to Work to Have Fun?

Really. Work isn't fun, else I'd be buying a ticket to participate.

Yep. I wonder when we will have bonus goals for the year based on improving our "fun metrics" or something like that.

<insert appropriate Dilbert cartoon here>

A former boss (a real company man and workaholic, but otherwise a nice guy) asked me once what I would do if I won the lottery (I think it was like a $4 million prize). I told him "Frank, out of the goodness of my heart, I would give you two weeks notice". He was actually rather shocked.

If you ask me, it looks like The "Management Class" in the US is seeing that the proles' (errrrr..... their valued employees) patience is running thin and are resorting to parlor tricks.

And if the response to the NYT article is representative, it looks like their parlor trick just bit them in the ass.

It is cheaper to encourage people to have "fun" than it is to give raises. And all the good consultants tell management that motivation by fear has a diminishing return factor. I worked at a hospital that went through some interesting times. After they did the management by fear attempt their next trick was to hire a consultant who taught us all that if we just had the same attitude as the fishmongers at the Seattle Pikes Market place we would really like coming to work again.

True story. It's called the FISH! Philosphy. One nurse I worked with responded to the training video with "Hell, If I could throw fish at the patients and my co-workers every day I might actually like it."

They bought these cutesy buttons with the slogan "Choose Your Attitude" and made us all wear them. We also were told that we needed to "play" more.

I think that was also the year they told us that the brand new profit sharing program they started the previous year was being discontinued. They couldn't understand why everyone was choosing a crappy attitude.

Fun and work didn't mix in our experience but that maybe just the staff we employed.
They forgot that at the end of the day their fun came out of our pockets and that they were expected to actually work "while" having fun as opposed to having fun, get paid and work less.
Not to mention that if the choice had to be made to either have fun or work, guess which way they went, over and over and over again. Then they wondered why I got pissed off that I had to remind them multiple times a day.

No, fun and work don't always workout.
Some people can do it. Others have no hope in hell.

FZR1KG wrote:Fun and work didn't mix in our experience but that maybe just the staff we employed.
They forgot that at the end of the day their fun came out of our pockets and that they were expected to actually work "while" having fun as opposed to having fun, get paid and work less.
Not to mention that if the choice had to be made to either have fun or work, guess which way they went, over and over and over again. Then they wondered why I got pissed off that I had to remind them multiple times a day.

No, fun and work don't always workout.
Some people can do it. Others have no hope in hell.

don't get me wrong. I go to work with a great attitude. I have fun. I choose to have a great day and do the best work that I can. I just hate it when people piss down my back and tell me it's raining. And then tell me the best way to deal with the situation is to dance in the rain.

SciFiFisher wrote: After they did the management by fear attempt their next trick was to hire a consultant who taught us all that if we just had the same attitude as the fishmongers at the Seattle Pikes Market place we would really like coming to work again.

True story. It's called the FISH! Philosphy. One nurse I worked with responded to the training video with "Hell, If I could throw fish at the patients and my co-workers every day I might actually like it."

"Nurse, 20 mg of fentozene stat!"

"CATCH!"

I was trying to find an appropriate Dilbert. This one has nothing to do with the topic it, but I like it:

From what I have seen in the different companies I have worked in, it seems like a cycle:

Step 1: Management by Fear till they hit diminishing returns.

Step 2: Nonsense like that FISH philosophy thing. Which IMHO has even greater diminishing returns.

From Fisher's link

To grasp just how presumptuous Fish! really is, just try a thought experiment: imagine management’s reaction if the circumstances were reversed. Imagine the bosses’ reaction if you and your coworkers matter-of-factly announced that, henceforth, you would be working at a slower pace for the same amount of money, or that you would be receiving a higher hourly wage. Imagine telling the boss "you can’t do anything about these changes, but you can choose to have a good attitude about them!" My guess is your boss would demonstrate in short order that he does have control over events, and that it’s not his attitude that has to be adjusted. That’s because, while you may be powerless, your bosses most certainly are not.

This asymmetrical power relationship is implicit in Fish! Philosophy. And you’d better believe that the people who push it are fully aware of their agenda. [...] They are the ones who do things. We are the ones that things are done to. Learn to enjoy it, or else. That’s the message of Fish! Philosophy

I don't really know who Kevin Carson is or if any of his ramblings are of any use, but that quote, seems to me right on the money.

Step 3: By the time they hit the diminishing returns of Step 2, Management, retorts to raising salaries. Unfortunately, it's too late, they've lost their best people and even if they manage to hire one or two good employees (to try to offset the loss of key personnel), they have hollowed out operations so badly, that a major disaster strikes. So, "enraged", Management goes back to Step 1: Management by Fear.

Rinse, Repeat.

In the particular case of the trend mentioned in the NYT article, I am of the opinion that they could get away with all that "Fun Engineering" crap (which really started in the 90s along with all the Goleman/Covey nonsense), because the economy was doing well so people would tolerate it.

But in these current depressed economic times, it seems to me that:

- Since there was a lot of fear of unemployment, Management overdid Step 1.

- As a consequence of the above I think that most people with more than half a working neuron will find the whole thing insulting. Therefore, I suspect that the diminishing returns of Step 2 will be even greater than usual.

- So, as a consequence, the effects of Step 3 will be much much nastier. Particularly, if the economy ever improves.

Edited for Spelling

BTW Swift, here is a relevant Dilbert Strip

SciFiFisher wrote:don't get me wrong. I go to work with a great attitude. I have fun. I choose to have a great day and do the best work that I can. I just hate it when people piss down my back and tell me it's raining. And then tell me the best way to deal with the situation is to dance in the rain.

We had two that could have fun and work at the same time. One that could do it naturally. The other had to work on it. haha.
The problem was all were easily dragged by the others into not performing.
Once the fun started it was get as much fun in and screw the restaurant.
All perspective was lost.

It takes a lot of real world experience to get and understand the balance. The new generation overall doesn't but it's not because of the generation, it's the lack of experience that they haven't acquired yet.

If I ever ran another restaurant again it would be very different, lets put it that way. Almost the changes would relate to staff rules/conditions. Our biggest mistake was treating them the way we would like to have been treated. They just didn't take that well.

I put it down to lack of experience and maturity.
Like all these libertarians that want freedom, freedom, freedom. Like nothing else is even worth considering.
Yet if someone granted then their wish they would die out due to starvation, disease and general incompetence in any form of survival other than to grossly exaggerate both their knowledge and importance in the world.

I highlighted the word all deliberately. Any libertarian that has the required skills and honestly thinks that freedom, freedom, freedom is all that matters would have gone off to be free. It's not that hard to do but it comes with a cost, the lack of support from society. Those that do leave I actually respect. They know what they want and they do it.
ALL other libertarians that spout that freedom bullshit are nothing but losers,liars, and hypocrites.

The Price of Freedom is not Eternal Vigilance. it's knowing what to do with it.

Nice quote Sigma.

Most libertarians don't seems to understand the simple fact that apart from a very rare minority, people are more free when they are constrained by the burdens of society because that same society free's them of many other basic things they currently take for granted.
You know, little inconsequential things of no importance like say, law and order, medicine, those kind of pesky little things all libertarians can do without because they can defend their house using a handgun they aren't sure how to use against a foreign invading army with greater technology and they can shake their almighty saber and pray to jebus and stop their kids from dying of disease. Al a fucking loo ya.

Likewise with workers. Too much freedom and most fall apart. At least in my experience and not just at the restaurant.

As unsavory as it sounds, that sounds like the argument dictators use: "Not Ready for Democracy" and all that. There's definitely something to it though. Democracy requires responsibility, among other things. Requires to know that you pay a price for living in a society that brings all those things that you talk about.

Of course, they usually use that as an excuse to remain in power. So it's not like they're usually right (so: NO I am not accusing you of being a Dictator )

Anarchists want to think that with absolute freedom, people will naturally organize, police themselves and form a prosperous society. THAT is an utopia, it doesn't work. IMHO a lot people always end up in a hierarchical structure because they want someone else to do the dirty laundry. I think that's how elites eventually form.

IMHO, Libertarians just pretend to put a more "civilized" facade to the same thing. But the core issue remains.

I am not sure which quote you're talking about:

The one I put in response to Fisher's post: which apparently comes from a Libertarian/Anarchist. I thought the quote accurately explained why the "forced happiness" meme is crap. However, in the last few years, after recent events I stopped having in interest in what Libertarians have to say because it definitely doesn't apply to reality.

As for the one I did after your next-to-last post, it was something I made up. Because I tend to agree with you.

Most Libertarians are closet anarchists. Or unrealistic dreamers who think that unicorns and rainbows are the natural outcome of the lord of the flies. In order for a democracy to work you must have an educated voting public. Otherwise you wind up with the politicians buying votes with the public treasury. Or, as someone else put it:

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

Z... you, Fisher, Yosh and Sigma are not allowed to play in the same hemisphere (which is why you are setting sail for OZ, soon...), let alone work together... There are reasons for this.... Starting with the whole redneck thing....

brite wrote:Z... you, Fisher, Yosh and Sigma are not allowed to play in the same hemisphere (which is why you are setting sail for OZ, soon...), let alone work together... There are reasons for this.... Starting with the whole redneck thing....

Ah ain't NO redneck, Ah'm a "cuello rojo"


Anybody care to place bets about what Z is going to say about being a Dictator?

I remember the summer I worked in Mountain View (near Google HQ) the "Google boys" in the bars would often like to brag to us chicks in the bars on how cool and fun their workplace was. Which is totally what you want to hear from a guy- how work is so fun he never leaves!

I have a rather unusual workplace because it's a field where people do it cause they want to (swift, when we do that "what if you won the lottery" thing a lot of people would legitimately stay on), and my department is so small we hang out with each other a lot in work and out. So hey if they want to offer us free booze every once in awhile in the name of making things "fun" we're pretty ok with taking it.

But then, that's the nonprofit/ civil servant world for you...

SciFiFisher wrote:True story. It's called the FISH! Philosphy. They bought these cutesy buttons with the slogan "Choose Your Attitude" and made us all wear them. We also were told that we needed to "play" more.

fisher, thank you so much for reminding me of that bit of corporate nonsense. the book (a slim volume with big type and wide margins) was assigned reading as part of the preparation for a corporate pep rally. thank heavens someone saw reason and the 'philosophy' was not actually presented. (btw, your colleague was mistaken. the fish are not thrown at the customers but rather from one fishmonger to another as the order is assembled. i have actually seen this. pike place fish market. pike place market. seattle.) we didn't get pins not were we told to play at all. (what could possibly be more fun than a bunch of statisticians?) however, i must confess that i did have a valuable insight of the 'choose your attitude' variety while going through it.

simply this - let us say that you dislike your job. then why are you there? there's a reason. maybe you're finishing a degree or waiting until you're vested or you're looking but haven't been able to land another position or you just can't summon up the energy to start a job search. you must realize that there is a reason for the fact that you're staying. that you've made a choice and that this *does* cover the rent/mortgage etc. constantly grumbling about the rotten position doesn't help much and, imnsho hurts. it's not so much deciding that you're going to be cheerful but realizing that there's a choice.

code monkey wrote:(what could possibly be more fun than a bunch of statisticians?)

1.5% of statisticians with a confidence of 95% say that on average they are funnier than the 85th percentile of accountants and way funnier than 98% of police officers and far more humourous and admired than 105% of politicians and public servants.

FZR1KG wrote:

code monkey wrote:(what could possibly be more fun than a bunch of statisticians?)

1.5% of statisticians with a confidence of 95% say that on average they are funnier than the 85th percentile of accountants and way funnier than 98% of police officers and far more humourous and admired than 105% of politicians and public servants.

Now, that's funny.

code monkey wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:True story. It's called the FISH! Philosphy. They bought these cutesy buttons with the slogan "Choose Your Attitude" and made us all wear them. We also were told that we needed to "play" more.

fisher, thank you so much for reminding me of that bit of corporate nonsense. the book (a slim volume with big type and wide margins) was assigned reading as part of the preparation for a corporate pep rally. thank heavens someone saw reason and the 'philosophy' was not actually presented. (btw, your colleague was mistaken. the fish are not thrown at the customers but rather from one fishmonger to another as the order is assembled. i have actually seen this. pike place fish market. pike place market. seattle.) we didn't get pins not were we told to play at all. (what could possibly be more fun than a bunch of statisticians?) however, i must confess that i did have a valuable insight of the 'choose your attitude' variety while going through it.

simply this - let us say that you dislike your job. then why are you there? there's a reason. maybe you're finishing a degree or waiting until you're vested or you're looking but haven't been able to land another position or you just can't summon up the energy to start a job search. you must realize that there is a reason for the fact that you're staying. that you've made a choice and that this *does* cover the rent/mortgage etc. constantly grumbling about the rotten position doesn't help much and, imnsho hurts. it's not so much deciding that you're going to be cheerful but realizing that there's a choice.

When it comes to attitude (or fun) I often tell people that fun (or a positive attitude) is usually a state of mind. And everyone chooses which state they live in.

I just found it ironic that management was using this approach to try to change a culture that had become increasingly pessimistic and hostile. In fairness to that particular management group they were honestly attempting to change the course of the ship for the better of all. But, it was right after about 5 years of bad, bad, bad decisions. First, they decided to break the contract they had with the nurses. Then they chose to try to force the nurses to accept a contract that was significantly worse than they one they broke. Management then went through the building and threatened to fire anyone who was talking about the situation. The nurses went on strike. But, not all the nurses went on strike so for years after there was this huge rift between the "traitors" and nurses who went on strike. Then they fired the CEO and hired a new CEO. The first thing the new CEO did was axe the company profit sharing plan. so, the Christmas bonus that everyone was counting on was taken away 30 days before Christmas. After about 5 years it was darn hard to find very many people choosing to have a decent state to be in.

This crap went on for about 5 years and then they hired a company who measured how well our hospital was doing at "customer satisfaction" and they were shocked to discover that we had the worst customer satisfaction ratings in our region. Management did some "soul searching" and they hired a consultant to teach us better "customer relations". They measured customer satisfaction again and were shocked that it didn't get much better than the last survey. Then they decided that they needed to changes peoples attitudes and hired the FISH! Philosophy consultants who probably charged them somewhere around $250,000 or more to come in and teach us all how to have better attitudes and be happy.

I may be wrong but my estimates are that all the money they saved by cutting costs, freezing peoples wages, and breaking contracts were spent on consultants and programs to "fix things" and they lost money. Even worse IMO was the fact that for about 5-7 years it was damn difficult to get quality healthcare workers to come to work for our hospital because of the bad reputation our management had and the bad customer service we were infamous for.

Time to resurrect this thread.....

More Parlor Tricks

Are executive sleepovers the best way for staff to bond?

In the article they point to this Gallup Survey where they find "alarming" that 70% of US workers are "disengaged".

Sigma_Orionis wrote:Time to resurrect this thread.....

More Parlor Tricks

Are executive sleepovers the best way for staff to bond?

I would quit so fast there would be burn marks on the carpet. And straight to a lawyer and the National Labor Relations Board.