Never put your faith in the Democratic party

[lady_*nix]

They might be worlds better than the alternative, but as a whole they're still utterly chickenshit.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... nate-trial

Even with the impeachment likely doomed they could have made a point of this, they could have give rubbed the Republicans' faces is the mud, they could have put the corruption and abuse of power on wide-open display. Instead they threw away even that chance, and basically helped insure that more coup attempts will happen in the future. They backed down when they didn't even need to, to please people who would be happy to murder them.

I am so. fucking. tired.

[lady_*nix]

And the Senate, including McConnell, voted to acquit. Of course. This country is so fucked.

[Rommie]

FWIW, the reason was procedurally McConnell said if they did he'd fix it so the Senate cannot do any more work on anything until all the witnesses are done, ie drag it out as long as possible in such a way that important things like coronavirus relief can't happen sooner. Seeing as I highly doubt they were going to get a different answer with the votes if they did witnesses, I can understand that decision.

Mind they (well, two) might be chickenshit just because it's further proof we need to get rid of the filibuster.

[SciFiFisher]

From what I understand if they had insisted on calling the primary witness they wanted to and fought the Republicans and gone through the shit storm they would have gotten exactly what they did. Which was the statement from the Republican Rep. detailing what she was told by McCarthy about the call between him and Trump. The Republicans agreed to have that statement read into the trial record. If they had called her as a witness she would have been deposed and her testimony would have been...read into the record. And the Republicans would have had an opportunity to rebut it. The way they did the R team did not do a rebuttal.

The other key consideration was the Court of Public Opinion. If they kept the trial short, to the point, and presented a coherent argument to the public without giving the Republicans a chance to spend weeks and months gaslighting America the Court of Public Opinion was more likely to convict Trump. They knew they could show footage of Trump murdering Mike Pence and the fuckers in the red shirts would have voted to acquit him. I was just shocked that seven of the spineless weasels voted to convict him.

It seems to have worked. One poll I saw suggested that 58% believed Trump was guilty and should be convicted. And if the lawsuits using the KKK Act of 1880 something work they will bankrupt the crap out of Trump, the GOP, Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, and god know who else.

[Rommie]

Yeah, to be clear that whole snafu played out about in just the dumbest way possible. But I just can't imagine anyone remembering when it comes time to vote, so I think it's better if I turn my frustrations to more productive avenues, I guess?

[Sigma_Orionis]

I think that there was another reason for ending the impeachment trial. I think that one of the reasons for it was to widen the divide between the Pro-Trumpers and the others. Judging from the reaction, I'd say that objective was accomplished. And, dragging on the trial would not accomplish anything else. Public opinion seems pretty well set: The overwhelming majority of Republicans are pro-Trump, most of those rabidly so. While public opinion in general is against Trump. I doubt very much that extending the trial would change the numbers much. HOWEVER, a "Republican Civil War" (as some people are already calling it) only benefits Democrats.

I know that you'll find kind of stuff particularly distasteful LN. However, I don't see another way to do this. Dems under Obama tried to play the game like adults from 2008 until 2016. The 'Pubs played dirty, quite irresponsible so. Voters rewarded the latter's behavior by giving them the House in 2010, the Senate in 2014 and electing Trump as President in 2016. 74 million people voted for that megalomaniac. The Dems' hold over Congress is razor thin. The Supreme Court has a pro-Republican majority. Dems need to resort to schemes like reconciliation to pass any meaningful legislation. A special election or an untimely death and most probably will lose their majority in the Senate.

As unpalatable as it is. I think that RIGHT NOW. If the Dems lose, your country loses. So, if that means playing dirty, they better do. Because I don't think the world (let alone the US) can handle another four years of your current crop of Republicans.

[lady_*nix]

@Sigma

The thing is I don't think they are playing dirty, I'm pretty sure their attempts at diplomacy are genuine. As they have almost always been. And doomed, just like every other time they've tried this.

As far as maintaining a hold, one of the best things they could do is go whole hog with the stimulus, because people literally do not have enough money to survive right now. Biden is like "people don't want handouts" but... honestly? A lot of us fucking do. It's the worst pandemic in a century, a quarter of US adults are unemployed, the economy is in the gutter, thousands of people are dying per day. They only stand to lose by doing half-measures, especially because the Republicans will sabotage those every time if given the chance. Meanwhile every major economy out there is paying people survival money as a percentage of their pre-pandemic wages... except the US, which is paying zero because we have no concept of public good. We're not even doing the bare minimum.

And like... what are the pro-stimulus Repubs trying to do? Negotiate it down to something useless. Which will help the public hardly at all if it gets passed. Four more years of that and we'll have another Trump in office, because the Dems had their chance to force through actually helpful legislation and failed to. And meanwhile the Republicans have fully divorced themselves from rule of law, and made it clear that they'd be happy to try another coup as soon as circumstances are favorable.

Contrary to what you say, IMO the Dems have nothing to gain and everything to lose by negotiating. The Democrats have power now, however tenuous; they need to wield it, and to permanent effect, before they lose it. They need to fucking clean house.

[Sigma_Orionis]

@Sigma

The thing is I don't think they are playing dirty, I'm pretty sure their attempts at diplomacy are genuine. As they have almost always been. And doomed, just like every other time they've tried this.

As far as maintaining a hold, one of the best things they could do is go whole hog with the stimulus, because people literally do not have enough money to survive right now. Biden is like "people don't want handouts" but... honestly? A lot of us fucking do. It's the worst pandemic in a century, a quarter of US adults are unemployed, the economy is in the gutter, thousands of people are dying per day. They only stand to lose by doing half-measures, especially because the Republicans will sabotage those every time if given the chance. Meanwhile every major economy out there is paying people survival money as a percentage of their pre-pandemic wages... except the US, which is paying zero because we have no concept of public good. We're not even doing the bare minimum.

And like... what are the pro-stimulus Repubs trying to do? Negotiate it down to something useless. Which will help the public hardly at all if it gets passed. Four more years of that and we'll have another Trump in office, because the Dems had their chance to force through actually helpful legislation and failed to. And meanwhile the Republicans have fully divorced themselves from rule of law, and made it clear that they'd be happy to try another coup as soon as circumstances are favorable.

Contrary to what you say, IMO the Dems have nothing to gain and everything to lose by negotiating. The Democrats have power now, however tenuous; they need to wield it, and to permanent effect, before they lose it. They need to fucking clean house.

I don't think I made myself clear.

First of all: I never said, nor do I think that the Dems are just going to negotiate with the Pubs. As a matter of fact, that's why they're setting the COVID relief bill to pass through reconciliation. Because they know they won't get any Republican votes for it. The thing is that there are at least two Dem Senators that can throw a monkey wrench. Joe Manchin from West Virginia and Kirsten Sinema from Arizona. Manchin is opposed to raising the minimum wage to US$ 15 an hour. he has floated the figure of US$ 11 an hour. Sinema is opposed to even including that in the bill because the reconciliation process has certain rules that apparently restrict the kind of stuff you can put in the bills. Their majority is even more tenuous than what you think YET, from what I've read, they are not going to spend much time negotiating with the 'Pubs. Just enough to say "We tried but they won't listen" while they try to use the reconciliation scheme to pass as many bills they can.

Second: When I said they were playing dirty, I meant that the Dems knew pretty well not only that they would never get the Senate to convict Trump. They also knew that public opinion might shift a bit against Trump, but that the needle wouldn't move all that much, I think that their primary motivation was to get the 'Pubs to fight each other and keep them divided, that way they can't work well together, so the Dems have a better chance of NOT LOSING their majority in 2022. THAT is "Party over Country" all the way. Yet, under the current circumstances, I can hardly blame them for trying that.

Edited for clarity

[lady_*nix]

Ah, fair. All I can say is I sure hope you're right.

[Sigma_Orionis]

So do I. As I said earlier: I don't think the world can handle another four years with the current crop of Republicans in charge of the US. Trump or no Trump.

[lady_*nix]

Extremely agreed on that last. The words "Republican death cult" have become a bit of a cliche but they've never been more true.

[SciFiFisher]

The good news is that Rush Limbaugh is dead. It may take them a bit to replace him as the king of shit talk radio.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Like I said when Manuel "Tiro Fijo" Marulanda (head of the FARC) died in 2008: Good Riddance you damned son of a bitch

[Sigma_Orionis]

Ah, fair. All I can say is I sure hope you're right.

Case in point...

[Rommie]

The good news is that Rush Limbaugh is dead. It may take them a bit to replace him as the king of shit talk radio.

Apparently $400k+ has been donated to Planned Parenthood in honor of Rush Limbaugh since his death. I really can't think of a more fitting tribute.

[Sigma_Orionis]

The good news is that Rush Limbaugh is dead. It may take them a bit to replace him as the king of shit talk radio.

Apparently $400k+ has been donated to Planned Parenthood in honor of Rush Limbaugh since his death. I really can't think of a more fitting tribute.