Can an Aussie explain this for me?

[FZR1KG]

Me from Croatia to Oz and the USA.
SFC to Oz.
Squid to Oz.
Morrolan to Singapore and oz.
Fyn to oz.
Geonuc from the USA to Oz and back.
Hap from the America to the USA.
Iky the USA from planet X.

Some of the above are currently living away from the place they immigrated to but will be returning.
Not sure about anyone else. IIRC Rommie was born in the USA but could be wrong.

What I find interesting is that almost all our members are from either the USA or Oz.
I include Canada in the USA as its the 51 state.

[geonuc]

Lets not forget that I sailed on the same ship that took you to Oz.

[FZR1KG]

Lets not forget that I sailed on the same ship that took you to Oz.

What, to get to Oz?
Even if not to get to Oz thats pretty cool.

[geonuc]

I sailed on the SS America from Germany to the US. That's the one you were on, right?

I had the pleasure of traveling to Australia courtesy of the US Air Force on a C141 transport.

[FZR1KG]

That's the one I was on.
Looked like a nice ship from what my 8 year old eyes could tell.

[FZR1KG]

Oh, she was built in Virginia!
I might have to go visit her birth place and take some pics for my sister if its still around.

[brite]

Oh, she was built in Virginia!
I might have to go visit her birth place and take some pics for my sister if its still around.

She was probably built in the shipyards in Norfolk...
She was sent to the wreckers in 1994...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_America_(1940)

[Rommie]

Some of the above are currently living away from the place they immigrated to but will be returning.
Not sure about anyone else. IIRC Rommie was born in the USA but could be wrong.

I was born in Pittsburgh, PA to a very Hungarian family- mom had come over less than 5 years before my birth, so we grew up speaking Hungarian at home and eating Hungarian food and all that. Dad was born to a Hungarian family in a refugee camp in Austria in 1946, went to Canada at age 3 and the US at age 14 (but back to Canada for several years during the Vietnam War, though now a very proud American).

Of course, I'm still a first generation immigrant since I moved to the Netherlands, where curiously I live on my Hungarian passport. Always kinda awkward to explain myself to random strangers so I just say I'm a "21st century citizen."

I think the prevalence of Americans on this board can likely be explained by the "seed" demographics of BABB which was also primarily American, and since then a lot of people who joined did so because they knew someone else who might be interested in the "real world."

[geonuc]

She was sent to the wreckers in 1994...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_America_(1940)

But she never made it.

[Rommie]

So I'm reviving this thread because this story about journalists embedding with boat people trying to reach Australia was just... well I think it should be required reading for Australian citizens. Or at least the photos and captions, cause to be fair it's not the shortest story.

I'm not saying America has it all figured out when it comes to immigration, but holy hell... the fact that the policy states that a pregnant woman on one of these boats who requires medical intervention has to stay in squalid conditions on the boat even when they could just take her off (and still send her to the internment camp in PNG)... the mind boggles.

[FZR1KG]

Australian border security has gone pretty nuts since the whole child overboard thing.

I read the article and some comments but what I find disturbing is the idea that somehow the fault lies just with Australia. Its a lot more complicated than that.
There are the people smugglers guaranteeing that the seekers will get to Australia and charging a nice profit to provide thee worst possible method to get there in unseaworthy boats. The Indonesian government for just fining people, in effect profiteering from others misery and desperation while passing the problem to Australia.

It's also worth pointing out that Australia took a lot of refugees in earlier decades. Some of this has come to bit it in the ass later on in years. It still takes a lot of refugees the last I checked, what it refuses to do is accept asylum from people arriving via boat from a country where they had no threat.
By that I mean, these people have already escaped the threat of their homeland and then use the country they went to as a jumping point to get to Australia. For example, those people were from Iran, Afghanistan etc but were living in Indonesia. There is no threat from Indonesia to their lives. They could at that point apply like anyone else for entry into Australia but they do not. Instead they risk their lives and the lives of their children not to get out of a country where they are in immediate danger, but rather they risk it because they prefer to be in Australia than where they are now.
To me that is a very important distinction to understand. It seems we are being told that they are refugees because they are being persecuted when they are not. The guy from Afghanistan that said anywhere is better than being in Afghanistan, well, you aren't in Afghanistan anymore. The Taliban isn't threatening you anymore. You escaped.
Likewise with the others. They have already escaped but they want to be treated like they are still in those circumstances.

Effectively this means that they are now in a position to apply for immigration and consideration should be given to their previous refugee status. Otherwise it really boils down to them being que jumpers from that point on.

If I had my way I'd just make it to where they can apply to other from the first risk free country they enter.

As an example, what if they made it to the USA and then started boarding boats, travelling over the Pacific to get to Australia. Do they still get to claim they are refugees from their original country?
What if they make it to Australia and find its not to their liking, can they then hop on a boat and head to the USA and claim refugee status there?

That's where the disconnect is for many people. You can't come from country B claiming that you were persecuted in country A.
Many have obviously gone far more jumps than two. Just where does it change from legitimate refugee status to preference?

This is the issue that should be addressed because if it is addressed then a viable solution that doesn't involve risking lives and the lives of children needlessly.

As it is however, the Australian goverrnment can't see the boat people's POV nor can many Australian citizens and the refugee's certainly can't see the Australian's POV that they are the ones needlessly risking themselves and their children.

[Rommie]

Actually I happen to know what happens in the USA if you arrive from another country and request asylum (obviously not on a boat, but thousands of people do at the airports every year for example). Basically even if you come from another country where you were not under threat- say your life was threatened in Asia, you were in Europe, but then you flew to the USA- you are still eligible under humanitarian grounds even though your life wasn't under immediate threat in Europe (unless you say had legal residency there- but it doesn't sound like these people have legal residency in Indonesia). There are others on this board who know the details legally better than I, but in this memoir for example the girl had escaped her country to Germany, but went to the US because she didn't speak German and had relatives in the USA. I'm not saying she didn't spend 16 months in prison while her application was considered, or that boat people shouldn't be held while their stories are being checked etc, but it seems a bit crazy to me that even if it turns out you are a legit case you still don't get to enter. Or, as the article says, if you aren't you might just be held in legal limo indefinitely because Australia has no treaties to return many people.

Obviously, yes, if you're just an economic migrant then you shouldn't be allowed to jump the line, and Oz should probably start laying pressure on the Indonesian government more to seek and fine the smugglers. But by definition economic migrants are not refugees (to me at least), and that category is the one I'm a little more disturbed about. To quote the article, it's not like immigration isn't a hot topic in the US, but the zeal and controversy around boat people compared to the scale of the problem strikes me as odd- it's not like Australia really accepts many refugees per capita in the first place compared to other countries.

[FZR1KG]

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I agree with the current state of things, because I don't.
I'm just trying to explain some of the reasons for the policy.

I'm not saying she didn't spend 16 months in prison while her application was considered, or that boat people shouldn't be held while their stories are being checked etc, but it seems a bit crazy to me that even if it turns out you are a legit case you still don't get to enter. Or, as the article says, if you aren't you might just be held in legal limo indefinitely because Australia has no treaties to return many people.

Thus another reason to set a policy of no entry is the fact that they do risk their lives needlessly to get here, which is not the case when coming in via an aircraft.
Every year there are hundreds of people dying on these boats trying to get there.
If the policy was changed so they are given asylum then more people would start trying, which means more people dying.
This is why they are advertising in Afghanistan for example, that they will not be given asylum in Australia.
In this sense Australia is pretty unique as far as refugee's go. I can't think of any other country where people are literally dying trying to get into when they aren't in a life or death situation at the point of departure. They are in effect going from a non life threatening situation into a life threatening situation while claiming that they left their first country because they were in a life threatening situation. Madness.

It's really a no win situation for anyone but the people smugglers and corrupt police in Indonesia.

As a side effect to this problem, Australia has now introduced some of the most convoluted systems for port entry in the world.
Designed to prevent refugees coming on ships, they struck a deal with shipping companies to only fine the captains for breach of the new rules (because it creates problems with a captain having a criminal record for other countries) but they take private boats (yachts cruising) to the full extent of the law. This means heavy fines and criminal convictions relating to customs entry. Needless to say this has caused all manner of problems for the cruising community because a criminal conviction causes them problems with entry into other countries.
Many private vessels now avoid porting anywhere in Australian waters.
I know the people charged and convicted in the first case, set the precedent so to speak. They arrived but had to be towed due to mechanical failures but because they hadn't read the really hard to get to website regarding the new 96 hour rule (almost strategically hidden) they were taken into custody after they were towed into port.
Nice eh?
Their yacht had issues, they needed assistance, they call for help and Oz comes to the rescue, tows you then charges you for illegally entering Australian waters. WTF?
Another case involves an elderly German couple who went to the Australian consulate in Fiji IIRC, were given old paperwork to fill out which didn't even have the new 96 hour rule on there and they too were arrested for illegal entry. They fought it, lost, appealed, got the great Australian kangaroo court and lost and had to pay prosecution costs. In effect they lost their retirement trying to defend themselves, got criminal records and were pretty much screwed on their dream vacation they had planned. Welcome to Australia.

What's the 96 hour rule?
Well, you have to report to customs by email (don't try phone because if they lose the records you are screwed) 96 hours before making port in Australia but no longer than 10 days. There are a few special exceptions.
To add to the fun, they no longer accept SW radio reporting so the only option is email. Not that many people have email on yachts. Most have SW radio though...

Rules designed to stop smuggling people via ship, applied to all vessels for good measure, hamstrung because if they prosecuted ships they would have no more container vessels wanting to come to Australia. So in practice the only thing it does is screw over smaller vessels entering Australian waters. Nothing but a useless waste of time and effort.

The border protection by sea has become a disaster for Australia's public image, not just on the refugee issue. There seems to be no tolerance unless you have money or influence.

Luckily we're not planning to go to Oz via boat...

So yeah, something needs to be done other than these stupid knee jerk reactions. Figuring out what the best thing to do however and getting someone to push it is the issue.
Indonesia isn't interested. Its far easier for them just to pass the buck to oz.

In the meantime, more refugee's will die, Australia gets to have its name dragged through the mud. Some of it very deserved I'll add and no one in power gives a shit.

[Rommie]

... yeah, have fun with that. (I just don't get it because with the possible exception of Indonesia is there anywhere that you can report from 96 hours if you're on a sailboat? I assume it takes longer than that to come from NZ for example.)

[FZR1KG]

They allow reporting from some Islands that are less than 96 hours away with less notice.
New Zealand is a pretty straight forward. You report before leaving and you should get there before the 10 day expiry.
Unless the wind is against you and you are in stormy weather.

Fiji is a problem as it may take longer than 10 days. It is all highly weather dependent.
Depending on your port some other places also will take longer than 10 days.

The problem is more with how they basically changed the rules for ships, realised that won't work, then started enforcing it on yachts when it was never meant for yachts. The 96hr - 10 days rule is easy to comply by for ships and I can even sort of understand, with a lot of people it takes time to pre-check everyone's details. Makes no sense pre-checking a few people considering that when coming in by plane they can check hundreds of people in a couple of hours.
The pretty much hiding the new rules within pages of crap when it first came into effect, then the deliberate targeting of smaller vessels just to make a point that, "hey, we're Australian border patrols and we need to be taken seriously", even though we have a rod up our collective asses and know we're enforcing crap but we have the power.
I will admit however this has been a localised effect in QLD. Most other Australian port officials never had a rod up their ass to begin with. Unfortunately that is pretty much the state to come into when traveling E-W across the Pacific which is what most people do.
To top it off, they also have the power to do destructive searches on your boat, which you have to fix at your costs and they have exercised this right of wankerness as well.

We'll be avoiding QLD and going to port in Sydney. Means it'll be harder to comply with the crazy rules but we'll work something out.

It is a perfect reflection on the stupidity of Australian legislation at times. Usually a knew jerk reaction to some event. Typical Australian politics in action and some wanker then pushes their new found power as far as they can, because they can.

What I find interesting is that every country in the world, including under resourced and undeveloped countries can perform the same task with less trouble.

[FZR1KG]

In case anyone is interested in the adventures of sohcahtoa , the yacht with three guys from the US I used to deal with many years ago in my former life as an electronics design engineer.

Direct link to the relevant page (August 17th is what you want to look for) regarding the incident:

http://www.svsohcahtoa.com/php/logs_jul_sep_06.php

These three guys were from Cypress microsystems, a start up that has since been merged with Cypress Semiconductor.
Still know a lot of the guys that are there but its been a while since we've been in contact.