Scottish Independence

[Rommie]

Well kids, the big vote on whether we'll have a new country in the world is tomorrow!

It was kinda interesting being in the UK last week for work and hearing all the stories on both sides (personally I think it's not going to get through this time, but will next time). A few notes-

- Apparently 16 year olds are allowed to vote in this referendum. I am slightly amazed by that because I really can't imagine the majority of 16 year olds having more of an opinion than just voting the way their friends or parents are voting.
- It really shouldn't be this close, but Cameron royally fucked up taking the whole thing seriously. I find his pleading "don't rip our family apart!" kinda funny honestly, as by that rhetoric Ireland never should've become its own country a century ago.
- I have no serious horse in the race, but am rather fascinated by the whole thing because of the realization that you can't just [i]invade[/i] Scotland anymore.
- That said, my Scottish friend's opinion on the whole thing is "my head says no, but my heart says yes," and push comes to shove he's voting yes. I found this rather interesting considering how much people worry about the economics here, and he's surely well aware of them.
- Finally and perhaps bigger implications for all of Europe, I think the biggest voice in hoping this vote doesn't go through is Spain because they are so worried about Catalonia leaving that they won't even let them hold a referrendum. But then two million people marched in the streets of Barcelona last week for Catalan independence (which equals over a quarter of Catalonia's population!), so regardless of which way it goes I think that independence movement has serious second wind. Will also be interesting if Scotland goes independent as you can't let them in with Spain vetoing it due to European bylaws- I suspect they'd be let in, but with some sort of compromise.

Anyway, not sure how much this gets press in other countries, but it's certainly been the talk around here lately!

[Sigma_Orionis]

Here in Bananaland? zilch, the BBC has predictably been buzzing with it, CNN and NYT have had headlines about it.

My position is somewhat weird. I agree with you, the Scots are using the wrong head to think. And yeah, Spain is not going to be happy, because right after the Catalonians pushing for independence are the Basque.

IMHO all this is happening because of the amazingly stupid economic policies taken by both the EU and the UK (According to Paul Krugman, the UK has discreetly changed course, but most people are way pissed off about it).

If you wanted to see what would have happened to the US if the federal government had followed the Deficit Hawks' plan, all you have to do is look at Europe.

What's weird about my position is that I think that if I were the Spaniards I'd get out of the Eurozone immediately.

[Parrothead]

The PQ are watching this one. A clear question and acceptance of 50% plus one vote, may push them to once again push for an independent Quebec. The last referendum led to a "Clarity Act" being passed here which would lay out the rules for Quebec seperating from Canada.

We'll see how the Scottish referendum goes, later this evening/night, into tomorrow.

[Sigma_Orionis]

According to the BBC, the results are expected for tomorrow morning.

[Swift]

It has been getting press in the US

John Oliver had a funny take on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0

Like Rommie, I don't really care and am just sitting back and watching.

[squ1d]

I wish they'd voted yes, then they'd have to find something apart from England to blame for their troubles. Salmond was a senior oil/gas advisor for RBS when they went insolvent and were bailed out for 40 million quid by the English taxpayer, he also has a long list of fraudulent claims such as 3000 quid for a hotel room at a golf tournament that the taxpayer has worn. The utter hypocrisy of wanting Westminster to give give give while he already has both hands deep in their pockets, voting on English legislation but not allowing the English to vote on Scottish legislation. All this no vote achieves is another 10 or 20 years before another one, and on and on until they vote yes. I wish they'd just get it over and done with and fuck off ! That or stop complaining. Cameron's begging routine was utterly pathetic.



Having said that, I live in Australia now and it's more important to my day to day life that we get Abbott out.

[squ1d]

Actually I think England should start their own independence movement, in line with some of my cousins suggestions. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can be the UCK (United Celtic Kingdom), and England can just be England, and best of luck to everybody!

[geonuc]

As much as I'd like to say I don't care if the Scots break from the union (and it looks like it isn't going to happen this time), I do care. The world is a pretty fucked up place right now because of international conflict. We don't need to have one of the more stable and sane unions broken up to be later exploited by the whims of various dirtbag politicians. Would an independent Scotland alongside what's left of the UK be as an effective influence on the world as the UK is now? Unlikely.

If the other forty-nine states in the United States of America can put up with Texas, then I think the UK should be able to work together for the common good.

[Rommie]

Funny thing is how many friends of mine on Facebook who are American have clear ideas that tragedy occurred. "They've spent three centuries convincing the people of Scotland of something they don't want!"

Um, no, I'm pretty sure it's a democracy where they had an election and the people decided this time they don't want to do it as yet. Also pretty pretentious to assume you know better than the folks who live there on what they should be doing.

Also as an aside (that perhaps squ1d can comment on), one of the things I really and truly never understood is the insistance that the constituents of the UK are separate countries in the first place. You can call yourself what you want, I guess, but it doesn't change the fact that you're essentially the same as US states with different histories.

[Sigma_Orionis]

In any case, the referendum results are in, they're staying, and Scotland gained some extra autonomy.

[Ikyoto]

We're a self apointed species, not HUMAN! We all have the right to call ourselves by ancient regional names!

[squ1d]

I could correct the hell out of you Rommie, but to what end ????

[SciFiFisher]

I could correct the hell out of you Rommie, but to what end ????

For truth, justice, and the satisfaction of knowing you are right?

[Parrothead]

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. The added/extra autonomy promised to Scotland will have to be approved. I can't help but wonder how Wales, N. Ireland, will react. What happens if the promises made to Scotland do not pass? Will another referendum be called in the near future? Plenty more to come on this issue. IIRC, the autonomy promised is supposed to get in the works early next year (March ? ) There could be some interesting debates going on in Parliament, between now and then.

ETA: I looked at Sigma's link, looks like all parties agreed to devolution of powers, granting Scotland more autonomy. Question being can they overcome their differences and work out a consensus on how to do it. If I understood things right, there will be a UK general election, before any final bill will be passed, leaving things to be resurrected and passed by the future parliament. Some explanation:

link: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29260244

[FZR1KG]

I could correct the hell out of you Rommie, but to what end ????

For truth, justice, and the satisfaction of knowing you are right?

Yeah!

And, there's always three versions of the truth. Your side, my side and American Interests. lol

[Sigma_Orionis]

Wrong, there's only ONE version of the truth: MINE and as far as I am concerned it's the only valid one

[SciFiFisher]

Wrong, there's only ONE version of the truth: MINE and as far as I am concerned it's the only valid one

Don't forget to deny and utterly dispute any evidence to the contrary. No matter how overwhelming the evidence is.

[Sigma_Orionis]

You make it sound like it was hard or something, all I have to do is apply Hegel's solution "The Worse for the Facts!"