FWIS3

So, who's planning a holiday to Cuba now in light of the news?

Kinda an interesting one for me as this coincided right with flying to southern Florida two days back (I had to come for a few days, primarily to get a new driver's license- I'm now a Florida voter too!). For me, opening things up with Cuba seemed obvious and inevitable and I actually figured Obama would do so while a lame duck when he first got reelected- it's something that needed to happen, but on your way out and it really helps if you could win the election without your party needing Florida.

Surprise surprise, lots of rabble rousing here because this is further proof that Obama wants to destroy America (not all from my parents!), and he "just gave everything away during negotiations" (I'm really not sure what this is referring to). I just truly cannot understand though why people can tell me we can have relations with China and Vietnam but not Cuba without it being an emotional one.

If you ask me the ones keeping that thing alive are Cuban Community in Southern Florida.

Another reason is that Castro is a wily bastard.

Good for Obama. I actually don't know all the nuances of why the anti-Castro Florida crowd wants to keep their fellow Cubans impoverished under US sanctions, but I suspect their reasons are stale.

I'm excited about this. Soon I will be meeting someone who will have a lot of insight. His family left Cuba when he was 16. He was forced to stay behind, because he was the age of conscription. He spent the next ten years finishing school and becoming a science teacher. With the help of a congressman, in 1978 he became the first person to legally immigrate from Cuba under Castro. He's now a fantastic and wildly popular teacher in MN.

Oh wow, that's a helluva story pumpkinpi!

My brother had a similar opinion to geonuc's actually- back in the day we would've been overjoyed if a Soviet country would want relations with America as it's a way to get them into the rest of the world and all that jazz. So why's everyone up in arms about Cuba?

My understanding of course is it's because a lot of people lost everything in the revolution who now live in Miami. I agree that sucks. But I don't see why that is (unfortunately of course) unique to Cuba as it's happened in a lot of places. It happened so long ago it was before the majority of Americans were born, including Obama, which should tell you something.

I mean if people really want sanctions and the like then fair enough, but then explain to me why Vietnam can have relations with us and Cuba can't. Never heard an answer to that one.

Rommie wrote:Oh wow, that's a helluva story pumpkinpi!

My brother had a similar opinion to geonuc's actually- back in the day we would've been overjoyed if a Soviet country would want relations with America as it's a way to get them into the rest of the world and all that jazz. So why's everyone up in arms about Cuba?

My understanding of course is it's because a lot of people lost everything in the revolution who now live in Miami. I agree that sucks. But I don't see why that is (unfortunately of course) unique to Cuba as it's happened in a lot of places. It happened so long ago it was before the majority of Americans were born, including Obama, which should tell you something.

I mean if people really want sanctions and the like then fair enough, but then explain to me why Vietnam can have relations with us and Cuba can't. Never heard an answer to that one.

In practical terms it boils to NIMBY. Or Not In My Back Yard. It's one thing to eventually have relations with Vietnam which is thousands of miles away. It's quite another to have a neighbor only 90 miles away whose avowed political system includes the destruction of democracy as we know it. At least that's why the US Government's position has been what it was for all these years. Of course, the Cuban "government in exile" and all of it's supporters are not necessarily doing it out of logical reasons. They don't have an answer because the more honest ones don't want to tell you that they could care less about Vietnam. For them it's about the eventual restoration of the democratic country of Cuba. With them in charge of course. Not to mention there are a lot of people who have probably made a killing on this whole embargo thing and ending it probably hits their wallets pretty hard.

As a military person it's rather hard for me to forget that the Castro regime was more than willing to let the USSR put nuclear missiles just 90 miles off of our coast. Pretty much brands them as Enemy #1 until about 100 years after they are all dead and in hell from a tactical POV.

SciFiFisher wrote:As a military person it's rather hard for me to forget that the Castro regime was more than willing to let the USSR put nuclear missiles just 90 miles off of our coast. Pretty much brands them as Enemy #1 until about 100 years after they are all dead and in hell from a tactical POV.

I'm pretty sure East Germany hosted quite a few Soviet nukes but that didn't stop our European NATO allies from welcoming reunification.

I spent the better part of my military service in the strategic deterrent force precisely to counter the threat of Soviet nukes. I don't need to wait 100 years to see Cubans get a little relief.

I mean, come on - have you seen the cars they drive? They are in serious need of parts.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cubas-cl ... rs-2014-12

Also: soft power, anyone? Exporting our culture to Cuba should be a lot more effective at changing them than enforcing a freaking embargo.

Gullible Jones wrote:Also: soft power, anyone? Exporting our culture to Cuba should be a lot more effective at changing them than enforcing a freaking embargo.

OK. I will admit I am in a contrary mood today. But.... that whole exporting our culture to get the change we want thing. Yeah, like that worked in the Middle East, China, and Russia exactly the way we wanted.

geonuc wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:As a military person it's rather hard for me to forget that the Castro regime was more than willing to let the USSR put nuclear missiles just 90 miles off of our coast. Pretty much brands them as Enemy #1 until about 100 years after they are all dead and in hell from a tactical POV.

I'm pretty sure East Germany hosted quite a few Soviet nukes but that didn't stop our European NATO allies from welcoming reunification.

I spent the better part of my military service in the strategic deterrent force precisely to counter the threat of Soviet nukes. I don't need to wait 100 years to see Cubans get a little relief.

I mean, come on - have you seen the cars they drive? They are in serious need of parts.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cubas-cl ... rs-2014-12

I don't disagree that "normalizing" relationships with Cuba has potential benefits. But, I suspect that there are some potential risks and secondary effects that may bite us in the butt. OTOH I will be the first to admit that part of the reason that I am not the Secretary of State is because I really have a difficult time forgetting the fact that many of the countries we currently have relationships with are also working against us or openly support the complete destruction of our way of life. I won't go so far as to say I hold a grudge. But, I never trust a dog that has bitten me. And metaphorically speaking many of these countries are merely waiting for the opportunity to bite the hand that feeds, trades with, or finances them.

Well yeah, it's called International Politics. Where today's pragmatism can pretty quickly turn into tomorrows embarrassing blunder.

SciFiFisher wrote:<snip>
I don't disagree that "normalizing" relationships with Cuba has potential benefits. But, I suspect that there are some potential risks and secondary effects that may bite us in the butt. OTOH I will be the first to admit that part of the reason that I am not the Secretary of State is because I really have a difficult time forgetting the fact that many of the countries we currently have relationships with are also working against us or openly support the complete destruction of our way of life. I won't go so far as to say I hold a grudge. But, I never trust a dog that has bitten me. And metaphorically speaking many of these countries are merely waiting for the opportunity to bite the hand that feeds, trades with, or finances them.

How long do you hold your non-grudge grudge. Germany? Japan? Spain? England?

I think it is a brilliant move and is decades overdue. IMO, what dropped the Iron Curtain was opening relations with Eastern Europe, as much as anything else, and a heck of a lot more than 50 years of Cold War military stalemate. Want to get rid of the Castros, open relations with Cuba.

I never really understood the position of the Cuban-American community about this. I think the first generation was just bitter that they all got kicked out of their positions of power in Cuba and held a grudge. I'm not sure why later generations bought into that. And I certainly never understood why the US's political position should be dictated by that minority community. But then I don't understand why we allow any of the ethnic communities dominate our foreign policy with their origin countries.

Swift wrote:How long do you hold your non-grudge grudge. Germany? Japan? Spain? England?

Very Good Point, but just remember one thing. The Cuban Missile Crisis almost ended in WWIII. Yes, I know, the Russkies did with Cuba pretty much what the US did with Turkey. But, I think that (traditionally anyways) what got most of the people in the Armed Forces (and State Department) so pissed off is that they didn't see it coming.

Swift wrote:I think it is a brilliant move and is decades overdue. IMO, what dropped the Iron Curtain was opening relations with Eastern Europe, as much as anything else, and a heck of a lot more than 50 years of Cold War military stalemate. Want to get rid of the Castros, open relations with Cuba.

I never really understood the position of the Cuban-American community about this. I think the first generation was just bitter that they all got kicked out of their positions of power in Cuba and held a grudge. I'm not sure why later generations bought into that. And I certainly never understood why the US's political position should be dictated by that minority community. But then I don't understand why we allow any of the ethnic communities dominate our foreign policy with their origin countries.

I've got a little conspiracy theory that goes like this:

Kennedy had (allegedly) some Mob connections, The Mob controlled Cuba as a fiefdom (or so we're told here south of the Rio Grande). When Castro booted Batista out of power in 1959, it messed up a lot of good deals for the Mob. So Kennedy snubbed Castro. How in hell could the MOB influence the US government's Foreign Policy? Well it was just a tiny unimportant Caribbean Island in 'Murrica's Backyard, so, like who's going to notice right?

Castro (who, like I said, has shown to be a very wily bastard). whose Left Wing ideologies were mostly opportunism, saw a way to protect his new fiefdom and at the same time be at the Big Boy's table when he befriended Khrushchev. I think that the US State department never saw that coming, Castro made them look stupid. And that's why it always had such an extreme dislike of Castro.

As for the influence the Cuban Exile community in Miami has over the embargo, two things:

A) The US State Department and Intelligence apparatus (apparently) was (and up to a point still is) very friendly with them, they actively supported any and all of the US' initiatives against Castro.
B) Apparently they're quite influential in Southern Florida, and Florida is usually a swing state.

Their enduring grudge comes from the failed Bayt of Pigs Invasion (which was another embarrassment for the US State Department). It also made the Cubans in Miami feel the US owed them, they (and the Intelligence community) never forgave Kennedy for withdrawing air support from them when they invaded Cuba. I mean, guess where the Cubans that set up and participated in that raid lived? and their families? they all lived (and their descendants still live) in Miami.

From my dealings with the Cuban Exiles in Miami, as I have said before, I consider them to represent the worst of Latin America, so I don't feel too bad about them.

Swift wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:<snip>
I don't disagree that "normalizing" relationships with Cuba has potential benefits. But, I suspect that there are some potential risks and secondary effects that may bite us in the butt. OTOH I will be the first to admit that part of the reason that I am not the Secretary of State is because I really have a difficult time forgetting the fact that many of the countries we currently have relationships with are also working against us or openly support the complete destruction of our way of life. I won't go so far as to say I hold a grudge. But, I never trust a dog that has bitten me. And metaphorically speaking many of these countries are merely waiting for the opportunity to bite the hand that feeds, trades with, or finances them.

How long do you hold your non-grudge grudge. Germany? Japan? Spain? England?

I think it is a brilliant move and is decades overdue. IMO, what dropped the Iron Curtain was opening relations with Eastern Europe, as much as anything else, and a heck of a lot more than 50 years of Cold War military stalemate. Want to get rid of the Castros, open relations with Cuba.

I never really understood the position of the Cuban-American community about this. I think the first generation was just bitter that they all got kicked out of their positions of power in Cuba and held a grudge. I'm not sure why later generations bought into that. And I certainly never understood why the US's political position should be dictated by that minority community. But then I don't understand why we allow any of the ethnic communities dominate our foreign policy with their origin countries.

Believe it or not the fall of the iron curtain would not have happened if the USSR had not first been bankrupted by 50 years of cold war. Between corruption and having to keep up with the three way arms race occurring over those 50 years the USSR was doomed to fail. They could support the programs that would have made them a viable communist social structure. They could support the corruption and the loss of productivity that their ruling system created. They could fund the three way arms race they were in. But, they couldn't do all of those things. When the west finally opened relations with the Eastern Europe the USSR didn't have the resources left to impose rigid order. And they had strangled a true socialist communism politic in it's cradle. When their cronies in crime in the Eastern Bloc nations decided that there was more money and power to be had by deserting the USSR it brought down the iron curtain. But, that would not have happened without the "cold war".

Swift wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:<snip>
I don't disagree that "normalizing" relationships with Cuba has potential benefits. But, I suspect that there are some potential risks and secondary effects that may bite us in the butt. OTOH I will be the first to admit that part of the reason that I am not the Secretary of State is because I really have a difficult time forgetting the fact that many of the countries we currently have relationships with are also working against us or openly support the complete destruction of our way of life. I won't go so far as to say I hold a grudge. But, I never trust a dog that has bitten me. And metaphorically speaking many of these countries are merely waiting for the opportunity to bite the hand that feeds, trades with, or finances them.

How long do you hold your non-grudge grudge. Germany? Japan? Spain? England?

I did say that there was a reason I was not in Foreign Policy All four of those you name have adopted governments and polices that do not focus on destroying the western sphere of influence. Japan has become a strong ally as have the other three. Well, Spain maybe not so much. OTOH if you look at some of the other countries I am not so sure we should have made nice with them. Look at China. We opened relations with them on the theory that if we sold them blue jeans and let them sell us cheap electronics they would eventually see the error of their ways and join us (the west) in our love of human rights and democracy for all. All we have really gotten in return is to have most of our patents ripped off, no real improvement in human rights, and it will probably be 300 years before China has anything resembling a real election. And to make matters worse we have allowed China to become the largest economy in the world. Which means that they have realized they can tell everyone to go pound sand because they really don't have to change. So, yeah that's really working for us.

we have allowed China to become the largest economy in the world

lol

squ1d wrote:

we have allowed China to become the largest economy in the world

lol

Seriously! The U.S. is not the determiner of what works in the world. All China has done is take capitalism to its natural end, and it actually works well with communism if you don't care about human rights. But things are changing. There are actually some quality products coming out of China now. Much like Japan, and it's happened in roughly the same amount of time.

As for opening relations with China - that was strictly out of greed and a desire to screw over the American worker. It had nothing whatsoever to do with destroying communism.

And what we've done to Cuba is unconscionable. Throwing out what we did with Turkey, which was on the doorstep of the USSR, and acting like that wasn't a big deal is disingenuous at best.

SciFi Chick wrote: All China has done is take capitalism to its natural end, and it actually works well with communism if you don't care about human rights. But things are changing. There are actually some quality products coming out of China now. Much like Japan, and it's happened in roughly the same amount of time.

As for opening relations with China - that was strictly out of greed and a desire to screw over the American worker. It had nothing whatsoever to do with destroying communism.

you and I disagree on what the "natural end" of capitalism should be then. As for your assertion that opening relations with China and the intent to destroy communism. One does not preclude the other. Yes, there were wealthy capitalists whose primary purpose in opening China may have been to break the unions and to find a source of cheap disposable labor. But, that does not preclude the starry eyed idealists who were thoroughly convinced that if we introduced the Chinese people to the joys of capitalism and consumerism that it would cause them to overthrow the tyranny of communism.

SciFiFisher wrote:
you and I disagree on what the "natural end" of capitalism should be then.

No. I don't disagree on what it should be, but China is a perfect example of unregulated capitalism. Capitalism only works if it's regulated. The misunderstanding of the invisible hand of the market has put our economy into a world of hurt. Exporting manufacturing to China is a perfect example of this misunderstanding.

SciFi Chick wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:
you and I disagree on what the "natural end" of capitalism should be then.

No. I don't disagree on what it should be, but China is a perfect example of unregulated capitalism. Capitalism only works if it's regulated. The misunderstanding of the invisible hand of the market has put our economy into a world of hurt. Exporting manufacturing to China is a perfect example of this misunderstanding.

Yes, the invisible hand. What was envisioned was a free market that self regulated because no one group or force gained the upper hand. Unfortunately, it hasn't quite worked that way.

Just like the Paradigm of Philosopher Kings, Politicians just went and bought PhDs