FWIS3

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/22/11490 ... acy-broken

In particular check out the letter:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/310109056/Le ... or-Clapper

Don't hold your breath for a response though. Actually I can already predict what the NSA will say:

"We can't tell you because it would damage national security."

Yes. This is NATHIONAL THECURITHY *repeated stomp stomp stomp of jackboots*

Now remind me again why civilian oversight of military organizations is considered such a terribly godawful bad thing.

"Considering", right.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... led-online

Them: "We have to do this to protect you."

Us: "Protect us from what?"

Them: "We can't tell you."

Us: "Why not?"

Them: "Because that will make it impossible for us to protect you."

Us: "..."

Them: "Also you go to jail if you try to find out."

* * * * *

I want to believe this is what it looks like, i.e. a protection racket. But my cynical, conspiracy-nut feeling is that there is actually a very good reason for it. Possibly something that would cause widespread panic if disclosed; more likely something that would result in angry mobs attacking the Pentagon.

Seriously, does anyone remotely trust the US government with use of force at this point? Or am I utterly out of touch?

Gullible Jones wrote:"Considering", right.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... led-online

Them: "We have to do this to protect you."

Us: "Protect us from what?"

Them: "We can't tell you."

Us: "Why not?"

Them: "Because that will make it impossible for us to protect you."

Us: "..."

Them: "Also you go to jail if you try to find out."

* * * * *

I want to believe this is what it looks like, i.e. a protection racket. But my cynical, conspiracy-nut feeling is that there is actually a very good reason for it. Possibly something that would cause widespread panic if disclosed; more likely something that would result in angry mobs attacking the Pentagon.

Seriously, does anyone remotely trust the US government with use of force at this point? Or am I utterly out of touch?

I am probably the wrong person you should be asking this question of. I implicitly and on occasion explicitly am a member of a group who is part of the "use of force" used by the US Government. I have sworn an oath to deliver that force against all enemies both domestic and foreign. As such I am committed to trusting the leaders who decide when and where that force should be used. Does that mean that I trust blindly? Or that I think our government never screws up? Absolutely not.

But, here is where I think you have confused and possibly are comparing our government with say a totalitarian one. You are talking about clandestine surveillance of foreigners. Along the way our intelligence gathering actions also manage to collect a lot of information about US citizens. A government like China's would, as a matter of course, read and evaluate their citizens emails and telephone calls and if they decided they were doing something the Chinese government doesn't like they would act accordingly. In this case the head of a secret agency is reluctant to reveal information because 1. it violates the privacy of US citizens, 2. It might reveal to other governments our methods and give them an idea of how to stop us, and 3. In order for our intelligence communities to do their jobs they must do so in a way that is clandestine. i.e. secret. you know... stealthy. And 4. Anything that is revealed or shared with congress will probably be instantly on the internet and in the newspapers faster than you can say "damn Skippy".

So... Let's see if I have this right. You want a secret agency to violate the privacy of thousands of US citizens, reveal our methods to foreign governments, and help congress commit a monumental security breach just so Congress can say they are doing their job after refusing to do their job for most of the last 8 years? All because a program that collects incidental information about US citizens and to date no one has suggested that any of that information has actually been used to arrest or convict any US citizen of any actual crime?

And you are confusing the collection of data and reading a few steamy emails with the use of force? Perhaps you and I have a different definition of the "use of force".

Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

Fisher wrote:So... Let's see if I have this right. You want a secret agency to violate the privacy of thousands of US citizens, reveal our methods to foreign governments, and help congress commit a monumental security breach just so Congress can say they are doing their job after refusing to do their job for most of the last 8 years? All because a program that collects incidental information about US citizens and to date no one has suggested that any of that information has actually been used to arrest or convict any US citizen of any actual crime?

Where exactly did I say any of that? No wait, how does what you're saying even make any sense at all?

They're already violating people's privacy.

Foreign governments probably know plenty about our methods.

A single rough number is not a security breach.

We don't know that the information is "incidental". Or that it hasn't been used to arrest people. Because it's, you know, a huge fucking secret.

Look, I know I sound super pompous here, but you are literally not making any sense at all. None!

As for "use of force", see what vendic says above. Yes, China's govt. is undoubtedly worse, because China is an Orwellian totalitarian state with a fetish for executing people. Saying the US is good compared to China is like saying I'm good compared to Charles Manson, i.e. utterly meaningless.

Look - in a lot of ways, I'm very glad to live in the US. Things are very good here, relative to many parts of the world. That doesn't mean I have to be perfectly a-okay with zero accountability for intelligence agencies. Especially since such agencies have a goddamn history of building little fiefdoms on top of piles of corpses, when given absolute free reign.

Gullible Jones wrote:h
In particular check out the letter:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/310109056/Le ... or-Clapper

From the letter:

First, we understand that an exact count of how many United States persons have been swept up into Section 702 surveillance efforts may not be feasible. The leadership of the intelligence community has long held this view, and the Inspector General for the National Security Agency--who is an administrative appointee, and not an independent inspector general--has deferred to your office on this issue.6 We understand that limited resources and technical barriers may prevent you from making an exact count.

We are not asking you for an exact count. Today, our request is simply for a rough estimate.

13%

Why does the line, "You can't handle the truth." keep bouncing around in my head?

vendic wrote:Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

But THAT SHIT isn't happening today.

Gullible Jones wrote:

Fisher wrote:So... Let's see if I have this right. You want a secret agency to violate the privacy of thousands of US citizens, reveal our methods to foreign governments, and help congress commit a monumental security breach just so Congress can say they are doing their job after refusing to do their job for most of the last 8 years? All because a program that collects incidental information about US citizens and to date no one has suggested that any of that information has actually been used to arrest or convict any US citizen of any actual crime?

Where exactly did I say any of that? No wait, how does what you're saying even make any sense at all?

They're already violating people's privacy.

Foreign governments probably know plenty about our methods.

A single rough number is not a security breach.

We don't know that the information is "incidental". Or that it hasn't been used to arrest people. Because it's, you know, a huge fucking secret.

Look, I know I sound super pompous here, but you are literally not making any sense at all. None!

As for "use of force", see what vendic says above. Yes, China's govt. is undoubtedly worse, because China is an Orwellian totalitarian state with a fetish for executing people. Saying the US is good compared to China is like saying I'm good compared to Charles Manson, i.e. utterly meaningless.

Look - in a lot of ways, I'm very glad to live in the US. Things are very good here, relative to many parts of the world. That doesn't mean I have to be perfectly a-okay with zero accountability for intelligence agencies. Especially since such agencies have a goddamn history of building little fiefdoms on top of piles of corpses, when given absolute free reign.

How do you know they are not being held accountable? Has it ever occurred to you that there are actually two congressional committee's who have oversight on the US intelligence community? The Senate Select Committee On Intelligence and the United States House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence both have jurisdiction over the Intelligence community. They control budgets, activities, and hold the intelligence communities accountable. I find it very interesting that the House Judiciary Committee, which has no "jurisdiction" over the intelligence committee are the ones asking for this information. Yet, the director of the NSA is at least addressing the question. And I have to wonder. Why doesn't the House Judiciary Committee just ask the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence if they already know the answer to this question?

And the fact that you think that nothing I said made any sense just proves to me that I was right in my original assertion that I am not the person who can answer your question.

SciFiFisher wrote:

vendic wrote:Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

But THAT SHIT isn't happening today.

Back when it was happening, if asked, the government would say, it's not happening!

What day exactly was it that the US government decided not to do bad shit anymore in secret operations?
The problem here is that even recently, they were found guilty of destroying evidence. Gitmo etc.

While a lot of that stuff was done in the name of intelligence gathering, we now have more effective methods for that.
Even still, extraordinary rendition was recently used. The government was actively stealing from people and using the police to do it, and it still is via civil asset forfeiture. Yes I know that the feds recently made changes, iirc the states however are still allowed to do it.

Then lets look at Haiti, Columbia, Honduras, Chile, Syria, Libya, Iraq with the US government meddling in other states affairs creating a bigger mess that costs the lives of Americans to fix while destabilizing regions and making money for the politicians and their friends.

There's tons of shit happening. It's mostly off-shored now to avoid controversy.

vendic wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:

vendic wrote:Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

But THAT SHIT isn't happening today.

Back when it was happening, if asked, the government would say, it's not happening!

What day exactly was it that the US government decided not to do bad shit anymore in secret operations?
The problem here is that even recently, they were found guilty of destroying evidence. Gitmo etc.

While a lot of that stuff was done in the name of intelligence gathering, we now have more effective methods for that.
Even still, extraordinary rendition was recently used. The government was actively stealing from people and using the police to do it, and it still is via civil asset forfeiture. Yes I know that the feds recently made changes, iirc the states however are still allowed to do it.

Then lets look at Haiti, Columbia, Honduras, Chile, Syria, Libya, Iraq with the US government meddling in other states affairs creating a bigger mess that costs the lives of Americans to fix while destabilizing regions and making money for the politicians and their friends.

There's tons of shit happening. It's mostly off-shored now to avoid controversy.

Well that settles it. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. ... It’s the only way to be sure.

vendic wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:

vendic wrote:Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

But THAT SHIT isn't happening today.

Back when it was happening, if asked, the government would say, it's not happening!

What day exactly was it that the US government decided not to do bad shit anymore in secret operations?
The problem here is that even recently, they were found guilty of destroying evidence. Gitmo etc.

I merely observed that we no longer were doing THAT Bad Shit. I didn't say we weren't doing OTHER bad shit. As for experimenting on black people we no longer restrict ourselves to singling out one race over another.

Yosh could tell you but then he would have to kill you.

SciFiFisher wrote:

vendic wrote:Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

But THAT SHIT isn't happening today.

riiiiiiggggghhhhhttttt

Thumper wrote:

vendic wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:

vendic wrote:Given the US history with abuse of its citizens, I personally wouldn't trust them much at all.
MKULTRA and a lot of that other stuff (experiments on black people, kids etc) weren't actually conspiracy theories. That shit happened.

But THAT SHIT isn't happening today.

Back when it was happening, if asked, the government would say, it's not happening!

What day exactly was it that the US government decided not to do bad shit anymore in secret operations?
The problem here is that even recently, they were found guilty of destroying evidence. Gitmo etc.

While a lot of that stuff was done in the name of intelligence gathering, we now have more effective methods for that.
Even still, extraordinary rendition was recently used. The government was actively stealing from people and using the police to do it, and it still is via civil asset forfeiture. Yes I know that the feds recently made changes, iirc the states however are still allowed to do it.

Then lets look at Haiti, Columbia, Honduras, Chile, Syria, Libya, Iraq with the US government meddling in other states affairs creating a bigger mess that costs the lives of Americans to fix while destabilizing regions and making money for the politicians and their friends.

There's tons of shit happening. It's mostly off-shored now to avoid controversy.

Well that settles it. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. ... It’s the only way to be sure.

GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

SciFiFisher wrote:
I merely observed that we no longer were doing THAT Bad Shit. I didn't say we weren't doing OTHER bad shit. As for experimenting on black people we no longer restrict ourselves to singling out one race over another.

Yosh could tell you but then he would have to kill you.

lol

*like*

vendic wrote:What day exactly was it that the US government decided not to do bad shit anymore in secret operations?
The problem here is that even recently, they were found guilty of destroying evidence. Gitmo etc.

I don't think it's a matter of the government 'deciding' not to do bad shit anymore. It's more a matter of whether they're able to keep it secret. Ever since Al Gore invented the internet, that's been difficult.

"found guilty" - interesting term.

geonuc wrote:
"found guilty" - interesting term.

Oh you lawyer you.

Bad phrasing. One of my dyslexic issues. Was deciding to type guilty of, and were found to have destroyed, then my mind and fingers melded to parse it into what I wrote.
Which was really funny reading your quote because I was thinking, "Wow, they were convicted. Better look that up". lol

The problem with the internet is that people don't accept the information, dismissing it out of hand. It's like an internet reflex action.
Someone finds something, everyone says, it's bullshit without digging into it.

One day when you're bored, find the most crazy "conspiracy theory" you can find that is factual.
Then mention it. Most people dismiss it instantly. Few will want proof. Those that do often reject it based on nothing but they think it's crap. Mostly, it's just ignored.
I've done it a lot. It started out amusing. Then it just got depressing. The majority of people don't really care about what happens to others. They simply care about how it affects them.

The other issue is that they know that data can be stolen. It's not that hard to not have any written or digital details, or where necessary keep it so compartmentalized that access is near impossible without major coordinated effort.
If they can't work out how to do this, then we're doomed due to incompetence.

vendic wrote:The problem with the internet is that people don't accept the information, dismissing it out of hand.

I'm sorry, I don't believe that, since you posted it on the Internet.