Election 2020

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Election 2020

Postby Rommie » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:11 pm

Can we just have a general election thread until this madness is over? Seems like we could use one. :)

We watched a decent amount of the Democratic convention last week, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. My expectations were low for what was shaping up to be four evenings of infomercials, and while some of the "candid" videos felt like that I'd say overall all the marks were hit that needed to be hit. For me, the two highlights were Obama's speech where he laid out the case for how bad things are, but how people should not give into cynicism and vote anyway because people faced harder things in the past in this country but still participated and overcame them. (Kamala after was merely okay, IMO, but it was a tough act to follow.) Biden though, wow. Definitely the best convention speech I've ever seen a candidate give- to be fair, I think they knew so much rode on this in terms of candidate exposure in the pandemic times. But wow, I confess I got a little teary eyed when he addressed people who had lost someone in the epidemic and saying he knew a little about what people were feeling, and I saw he was getting emotional in that moment. I'm not saying the bar is low, but how insane is it that we are about half a year into this pandemic and this is the first time a national authority figure has really done that. And it was such a stark contrast to making you think why the heck the current administration hasn't done that basic decency (because of course if they did they'd be acknowledging things are bad, and can't have that!).

Meanwhile, the Republicans are full on fascist now with "no more platform beyond we support Trump!" I guess if you were still the Republicans claiming "it's about principles and not just his party!" you have little to stand on, but I'm sure they'll make some crap up. I'm not planning to watch though, I'm sure we'll get the highlight reel later.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:02 pm

Well, the first night of the Republican convention was revisionist history writing and telling everyone what a horrible world we will have if Biden is elected. And in typical fashion...after complaining that the DNC was mostly pre-recorded and wasn't that just terrible the Republican version was..wait for it... mostly pre-recorded. :lol:
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:00 am

Well, guess we've officially progressed from veiled antisemitism to the very loud and blatant kind.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rnc-speak ... he-world-1

Pogroms are question of "when" now, not "if".
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:14 pm

The interesting thing is the large number of Republicans endorsing Biden openly. None of them currently politicians running for office mind you. :lol:
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:18 pm

lady_*nix wrote:Well, guess we've officially progressed from veiled antisemitism to the very loud and blatant kind.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rnc-speak ... he-world-1

Pogroms are question of "when" now, not "if".


They did have the decency to boot her from the speaking line up. And she did claim she didn't realize it was such a blatant bunch of anti-Semitism because she didn't read all of it. :roll:

What kills me is that they are literally still circulating the same conspiracy crap that was around in the years before the Nazi's rose to power. And that was propagated by the Nazi's. Would it kill them to get new material? :scream:
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:03 pm

SciFiFisher wrote:
lady_*nix wrote:Well, guess we've officially progressed from veiled antisemitism to the very loud and blatant kind.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rnc-speak ... he-world-1

Pogroms are question of "when" now, not "if".


They did have the decency to boot her from the speaking line up. And she did claim she didn't realize it was such a blatant bunch of anti-Semitism because she didn't read all of it. :roll:

What kills me is that they are literally still circulating the same conspiracy crap that was around in the years before the Nazi's rose to power. And that was propagated by the Nazi's. Would it kill them to get new material? :scream:


"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is even older than that. It's mostly copied from political satire works by french author Maurice Joly (Most notably "Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu") as I understand it, it was made up by the Czarist Police in Imperial Russia to justify Progroms against Jews. Like all conspiracy theories, it's always the same regurgitated material. I think that "Conservative" Jews have the same problem as "Conservative" Hispanics: They're both backing the Republicans and Trump and try very hard to overlook the fact that the Republican party has been taken over by nutjobs and conspiracy theorists and will turn against them at the first possible moment.

Edited for Spelling.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:48 pm

@Sigma

A significant majority of Jews in the US back the Democrats, but yeah, Jews who back Trump have to be pretty deep into denialism territory. At best they're dealing with Evangelicals who support Israel (and not Diaspora Jews in the US) to fucked up religious ends. At worst... well, white nationalists like Richard Spencer make their exterminationist beliefs very clear. They're making a bargain with the devil and they don't even understand the terms correctly.

That said it's super important to understand that most Israel hawkery in the US is from Evangelicals, not Jews. They have this infuriating way of talking over us, getting believed over us, and getting us labeled as antisemites for having more nuanced feelings about Israel, and... yeah. It's enraging as fuck TBH. And of course progressive gentiles see it and think the Evangelicals actually do speak for us, and are like "LOL American Jews are fucked up, I support Palestine so I guess that means I have to hate Jews yay!"

Jon Rosenberg puts it into a cartoon better than I can put it into words: http://amultiverse.com/comic/2019/06/25/the-shiksa/
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Rommie » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 pm

Yeah most non-USA people don't realize the pro-Israel stance the USA has is actually not pushed by the Jewish disapora, but by the evangelicals. I don't think anyone I ever mentioned it to in Europe for example realized it... and TBH there was some internalized anti-Semitism re-examined once I told them that. (The idea being that it made no sense why the USA would be so pro-Israel unless it's "the Jews" having an outsized lobbying power, then you tell them that's actually not even the prime motivating factor.)

Unfortunately though while I will say Jewish people have traditionally voted Democrat, based off the frustrations of many Jewish friends my age there is a non-negligible number of older Jewish people who voted Republican in 2016 (no idea if that trend will stay, and this was more amongst the Pittsburgh crowd I grew up with over anyone coastal). Remember, some of those folks watch Fox News all the time like others their age, like the idea of pro-Israel, and being Jewish doesn't mean one can't be racist (else Ethiopian Jews would never have all the problems they unfortunately face). Throw in that Ivanka is a convert to Orthodox Judaism because Jared's family is, and yeah, as I said a surprising number of friends were shocked by how some older family members voted.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:41 am

@Rommie

Yeah that last is definitely a thing, and TBH me not seeing much of it is probably in part from the filter bubble effect of running in leftist circles.

I encountered... really only one example of that, actually, an older guy who was vehemently pro-Trump because (he said) he felt Trump was good for Israel. He was also just... vindictively cruel about rubbing people's faces in it (the congregation was mostly liberal). Especially with the global warming denialism stuff, he really got to me with that. It's hard to keep your cool when someone's laughing in your face about a thing likely to kill you and most of your loved ones.

That was one guy though, out of dozens of people, mostly nearer his age than mine.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:08 am

https://twitter.com/SethCotlar/status/1 ... 7480731649

In 2012, avid supporters of the incumbent showed their enthusiasm by knocking on doors, making phone calls, and registering people to vote. In 2020, avid supporters of the incumbent are riding thru cities with AR-15s, shooting paint balls and mace at people.


Fucking gonzo.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:07 am

@lady_*nix

Yes, I know that the majority of Jews lean Democrat. So do the majority of Hispanics. Amusingly enough neither of the two "Conservative" US Jews I've cross paths with in social media are older people (they're actually younger than me) One of them is so happy with Trump that she's willing to overlook his incompetent handling of the COVID-19 Pandemic by claiming the Chinese deceived Trump (like... REALLY?) And the reason is that the US moving their Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem placed Israel in a "position of strength" (so she says) which helped with the recent normalization of diplomatic ties between the UAE and Israel. And sort of forgot that the UAE is keen to curtail Iran's influence in the region, not to mention that the US sweetened the deal by allowing the UAE to buy F-35 Fighter Aircraft, or that Israel "suspended" their plans to annex the West Bank (Netanyahu says is temporary, the UAE says is permanent). I think that she's going to get a harsh lesson in Realpolitik pretty soon. The other guy was a typical conservative but Jewish.

Edited for clarity (TWICE)
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Re: Election 2020

Postby code monkey » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:18 pm

SciFiFisher wrote:Well, the first night of the Republican convention was revisionist history writing and telling everyone what a horrible world we will have if Biden is elected. And in typical fashion...after complaining that the DNC was mostly pre-recorded and wasn't that just terrible the Republican version was..wait for it... mostly pre-recorded. :lol:


how much of it were you able to watch, fisher? I asted 5-10 min.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:59 pm

@Sigma

Aye. Yeah at this point I have trouble being sympathetic to people like that, when ~50% of Palestinian youth are suicidal from how bad the conditions there are. Israel hawks can learn to see a picture bigger than one country, or they can get out of my sight. TBH as much as the situation there is more complicated than goyisch leftists will admit, it fucking shames and enrages me to see Jews defending that kind of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment.

Also mandatory "fuck you" to the UAE govt and their misogyny, oil wealth, and futuristic towers built with migrant slave labor.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:45 pm

code monkey wrote:
SciFiFisher wrote:Well, the first night of the Republican convention was revisionist history writing and telling everyone what a horrible world we will have if Biden is elected. And in typical fashion...after complaining that the DNC was mostly pre-recorded and wasn't that just terrible the Republican version was..wait for it... mostly pre-recorded. :lol:


how much of it were you able to watch, fisher? I asted 5-10 min.


Trust me I didn't watch much. Probably a total of 15 minutes.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:12 pm

lady_*nix wrote:@Sigma

Aye. Yeah at this point I have trouble being sympathetic to people like that, when ~50% of Palestinian youth are suicidal from how bad the conditions there are. Israel hawks can learn to see a picture bigger than one country, or they can get out of my sight. TBH as much as the situation there is more complicated than goyisch leftists will admit, it fucking shames and enrages me to see Jews defending that kind of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment.

Also mandatory "fuck you" to the UAE govt and their misogyny, oil wealth, and futuristic towers built with migrant slave labor.


The Middle East has always been an area full of conflict. The underlying cause of course is not religious or political differences between the different factions in the region. It's that it is a strategic location, critical for shipping lanes and trade routes to Asia. (THAT alone, explains why the state of Israel was created and why, despite it all, there so much support for Israel coming from the West). For decades Israel was led by a series of pragmatic politicians that have managed to keep it whole. The current problem Israel has, JUST LIKE IN ALMOST ALL WESTERN COUNTRIES THESE DAYS is that "Joe Average" has become more stupid and more stupid as time goes by. So, "Joe and Jane Average" keep putting nutjobs in power. The actual (logical) reason for Israel to grab the West Bank (and the Golan Heights of course) was to create buffer zones to ward off invasions from neighboring Arab League countries. In the last 30 years, that has been twisted and subverted significantly. The fact that you and Rommie mention about widespread support for Israel coming from US Evangelicals lead me to wonder if the change in Israel's stance has been a consequence of that.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:07 pm

There is also the challenge that Israel has its own version of a far right conservative group with some political power. And the whack a doodle politicians seem to know how to attract them.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:51 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant when I mentioned that "Joe and Jane Average" in Israel are (like everywhere else in the west) putting nutjobs in power. there's a reason why Netanyahu keeps getting elected.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:03 pm

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/today

Today
By Josh Marshall | September 14, 2020 3:40 p.m.

Today we learn that the Roger Stone deputy who now runs the press office at the Department of Health and Human Services says he’s doing battle with a CDC “resistance unit” which is trying to spin the Covid numbers against Donald Trump and murder Caputo. He predicts post-election civil war and encourages supporters to stock up on ammunition. Meanwhile the pardoned Roger Stone is calling for mass arrests against Democrats.

We also learn of a whistleblower complaint against a privately run ICE detention facility for allegedly tricking numerous detainees into getting hysterectomies.

In more pedestrian news the Attorney General of South Dakota ran over and killed a 55 year old man while driving home from a GOP fundraiser. He initially claimed he had hit a deer but the dead man’s body was found the next morning.

It’s only 3:30.


Feels like we're living in XOF News.

Also that hysterectomies thing? That used be called a Mississippi appendectomy. This is the shit bigots have been doing to Black and Latinx people for decades, and now they're ramping it up again. Same reason they stopped giving a fuck about COVID once it became clear it killed 3x more Black people than White people, same reason Trump started off wanting to build his wall and talking like Latinx citizens aren't actually citizens, same reason Trump said that thing about "shithole countries". This is literally 100% about ethnic cleansing.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:45 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

If you thought the undecided voter was an issue let me introduce you to the "let's vote to make sure nothing gets done" voter. I was reading an article today that was discussing the polling and how Trump's numbers are down and he is dragging down the other elections i.e. Senator and Representative. The majority of voters tend to vote the same down ticket as they do for president. But, apparently, there are some voters who feel that if they hold their nose and vote for Biden they can mitigate their sin by voting Republican for the Senate or House races. That way no one group has too much power. To be fair there was the suggestion that people who vote for Trump might do this for the Democrat Senators and etc.

Apparently, having a government that cannot get anything done is an actual goal for these people. Or maybe they live in a delusional state where they believe that these folks will compromise and negotiate to get reasonable things done. They obviously live in a bubble and have ignored the last 40 years of slash and burn Republican politics starting with Newt Gingrich and culiminating in the current crop of "fuck the libs" Republicans sitting in office right now. :cuss:
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:02 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... 65ab0cc0e6

Ruth Bader Ginsberg, a beloved justice and a crucial liberal vote on the Supreme Court, died this evening from complications of pancreatic cancer, the Supreme Court just announced in a news release. She was 87 years old.

...

Trump now has the power to nominate a replacement for Ginsberg, and the Republican-controlled Senate to confirm a replacement.


How the fuck are we even going to survive this?

Edit: TBH I bet the plan now is to put some wingnut on the Supreme Court and then have SCOTUS do a repeat of the 2000 election, declaring Trump the winner if the election is contested.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby SciFiFisher » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:34 am

It's going to get really interesting. Already a lot of people are throwing Moscow Mitch's own words in his face; “The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court Justice. Therefore, this vacancy should not be filled until we have a new president.”

A number of his toadies in the Senate are fighting for their political lives. McSally is DOA so she will be in favor of a fast Senate process so that she can cast her vote before Kelly replaces her. Susan Collins is VERY CONCERNED because at the last poll she was 5 points behind her opponent. There are a number of other Senate seats that are currently on thin ice for the R team. And I think that a rapid nomination process that installs another whack job like Kavanaugh or worse would be a nightmare scenario for the R team. There are a few of them that won't care because they already know they have lost.

One thing I have some faint hope for is that if Mitch and the gang of toadies do install a total wackadoodle in the Supreme Court that it will fan the flames even higher for the electorate who will turn out in huge masses to vote.

For at least two solid hours after the news broke the D team raised almost $15 million. People are starting to notice, I think, that the Republicans are not really for Democracy anymore and I hope that a lot of people who identify as independent or moderate realize that this election is not about Republicans vs Democrats anymore. It truly is about two radically different visions of what type of country the U.S. should be. And I am thinking that a lot of people are starting to realize they won't belong in the version that the R team is pushing.

IF we keep the House, win the majority in the Senate, and take the White House I am expecting some massive indictments to start coming. I am also expecting some impeachments. Did you know that federal judges can be impeached? I wonder how many of the over 200 judges Moscow Mitch has installed are trully qualified judicially? Gorsuch has seemed to keep his head down or maybe he really is an actual conservative constitutional scholar. But, Kavanaugh... he is a different story. Lying to Congress during his confirmation hearings just might be enough to see him thrown off the bench.

And on a serious note Barr, McConnell, and a lot of others are going to be getting their day in court if things go the way I hope. I know a lot of people are going to be "oh but we have to heal" My take is that we can't move on and heal if there is no justice and not holding people accountable. I have nothing against forgiveness but you can't have forgiveness without repentance or at least a sense that justice has been given it's due. I think in order for people to have closure and for this country to truly mend what is wrong we have to hold people accountable. That is, in my opinon, one of the reasons we are in this pickle. Too many people were allowed to do things they should not have with impunity for too long. And they need to be held accountable so that people can start beleiving that the system works again.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:08 pm

I'm a bit exhausted to discuss all those points, but... I feel like one of the things that's a given, is that no matter how dirty the Democrats need to play, what they'll actually do is try and compromise. I swear sometimes, you could tell people like Schumer "I am going to steal your firstborn child" and they'd be like: "Maybe we can compromise and each get half of my kid?"
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:59 pm

lady_*nix wrote:I'm a bit exhausted to discuss all those points, but... I feel like one of the things that's a given, is that no matter how dirty the Democrats need to play, what they'll actually do is try and compromise. I swear sometimes, you could tell people like Schumer "I am going to steal your firstborn child" and they'd be like: "Maybe we can compromise and each get half of my kid?"


I can tell you why is that. Your Republicans have become a Monolithic Party. And it's run by nutjobs. They've pushed out virtually all moderates. Your Dems OTOH, have and have always had lots of factions. That means that they ALWAYS have to compromise. The good news is that THAT makes it harder for nutjobs to take over the party (and BTW it's the perfect argument to counter the usual "Democracts are closet Commies" BS that's being pushed in Southern Florida politics right now) The bad news is that it makes it a lot harder to take decisive action.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby Rommie » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:17 pm

Honestly the cynic in me thinks that they’ll push someone through before January even if they’ve all lost their jobs.

Also if you needed a reminder of how fragile American democracy is right now, it makes no sense that its balance rested on the shoulders of an 89 year old cancer patient. I don’t care if she should have retired earlier it’s fucked up that she could make a normal mistake and it would be exploited to take rights from millions of people.
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Re: Election 2020

Postby lady_*nix » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:33 pm

@Sigma

A lot of it is also plain old corruption TBH. Most Democrats are not happy pinko hippies, they have corporate (and wealthy individual) donors who they will prioritize over their constituents. And for the ones who aren't there yet, they'll probably get there eventually, because US "lobbying" is pretty much bribery. Corruption and regulatory capture are a huge part of how the US got to be this way, and the Democrats haven't been resistant to that, they've just been less shameless about embracing it.

@Rommie

Yeah, that. And honestly I feel like this isn't even the only case of such, the US political system just seems riddled with single points of failure. e.g. The President's unilateral ability to command a nuclear strike has been a single point of failure for decades.

(And yes I know there are "reasons" for that. Think what you like about them, but IMO those "reasons" haven't made sense since Truman was in office and his generals were hankering to use nukes in Korea.)
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