FWIS3

For awhile now I've read articles about Australia's dealing with asylum seekers and the controversy surrounding it (like how now they're not even going to be held in Australia at all, but PNG- link).

Now I'm guessing that most of these people come from Indonesia and it's a similar illegal immigration situation in many issues to the USA's, except of course for the fact that Oz is an island so you get a lot of "boat people" talk. What I don't get however is ok, it's a standard thing in pretty much every country to send someone to a center if they show up requesting asylum until one figures out if it's a genuine case... but then you read stuff like this:

article linked above wrote:"From now on, any asylum-seeker who arrives in Australia by boat will have no chance of being settled in Australia as a refugee," Mr Rudd said.

Like, refugees never ever get settled in Australia even if they deserve asylum? If a North Korean showed up you'd detain him and then send him back so he gets sent to a labor camp?

Sorry I'm just trying to understand why this is such a controversial issue and then realized I don't really get what Australian policy is, I just know the kind of stuff they do.

Our Government is pretty fucked up in this issue.
You should google the "child overboard" fiasco with the Howard Government.
Basically they vilified the boat people (as they are called in Oz) for throwing their children overboard to be picked up by a Navy vessel as their boat was sinking.
The howard Government tried to say they threw their children overboard to save themselves.

One of the problems in Oz that I can point out is that in Australia you get free health care, you can get social security pretty much indefinitely as well.
So the problem is that many people from poorer countries come in, use the system and live off it doing nothing because they still are in a way better financial and living space than they were before.
e.g. initially in Melbourne when I was younger there was a large influx of Vietnamese refugees.
They would break health and building codes by having thirty people living in a three room dwelling.
Most on the dole, some working but on the dole.

Its a cultural difference that many Australian's couldn't understand.
I had a Vietnamese friend and found out he was doing the same thing, then he got married, we all turned up to his wedding gave presents etc.
Turned out he got paid to get married so she could enter the country. It was a fake wedding.
That was the last straw, haven't seen him since.

The problem is minor however. Not all are like that and there aren't that many coming in. The second generation quickly assimilates to Australian culture and the problem disappears.
The other thing is much of the country assumes they are que jumpers.
There are valid arguments for and against that reasoning.
But I think the main reason is that it seems Australia is the go to place to seek refuge when the whole concept of a refugee is get out of the country you are in, not pick which country you want to live in.
IOW, to get to Oz they traverse many countries they could have applied for asylum but continued to Australia instead.
Many think this is not how asylum seeking is meant to work.

It also has issues with Indonesia.
Most use indonesia as a jump port to Oz.
Indonesia has from what I've been reading, a tendency to off load anyone they don't want to Australia.
That last part becomes a political issue between two countries and the real asylum seekers get caught in this power play.

Also, Indonesia has a large population, many times bigger than Australia. If it were easy to get people to Australia the fear is our immigration services would be overwhelmed by ship captains who find a great deal of profit transporting these people packed like sardines in unseaworthy vessels.

I think I've covered most of it but if I missed something squid should be able to fill the gaps or provide a different view.

FZR1KG wrote:Our Government is pretty fucked up in this issue.
You should google the "child overboard" fiasco with the Howard Government.
Basically they vilified the boat people (as they are called in Oz) for throwing their children overboard to be picked up by a Navy vessel as their boat was sinking.
The howard Government tried to say they threw their children overboard to save themselves.

I haven't re-googled but, from memory, the whole children overboard thing was a completely unsubstantiated statement at best, a lie at worst. It didn't happen.

WARNING: UNPATRIOTIC HONEST STATEMENTS FOLLOW

To me, it's simple. It is legal for refugees/asylum seekers to come to the country and seek refuge/asylum. But due to the wild west parochial nature of Australia, there are a lot of really really racist people that have a mindset stuck in the 1950's and they don't like people seeking asylum/refuge because they are dole bludgers/look funny/DEYDERKURJERBS/funny coloured.

I tried to have a reasonable conversation about this at the club yesterday, with a diehard Lib voter I should say, and the overwhelming idea that asylum seekers live a life of privilege in giant castles with limousines on the dole at the expense of the tax payer makes any discourse based in reality quite challenging.

There are lots of refugees/asylum seekers around the place right now because world politics/reality. A small trickle of them come to Australia. Many Aussies I talk to are of the opinion that we should use our Navy to blow them up before they reach the shore.

Enough said.


p.s. we're not all bad

squ1d wrote:

FZR1KG wrote:Our Government is pretty fucked up in this issue.
You should google the "child overboard" fiasco with the Howard Government.
Basically they vilified the boat people (as they are called in Oz) for throwing their children overboard to be picked up by a Navy vessel as their boat was sinking.
The howard Government tried to say they threw their children overboard to save themselves.

I haven't re-googled but, from memory, the whole children overboard thing was a completely unsubstantiated statement at best, a lie at worst. It didn't happen.

Actually you're right.
The boat was sinking, they were holding their kids up to show that they had kids on board in a plea of help.

http://www.safecom.org.au/kids-overboard.htm

Howard did outright lie about it.

When my family emigrated to Australia in the late '60's, their policies were quite exclusionary. White Americans with money were okay. Others, maybe not.

They had what was called a "white Australia" policy back then.
It was removed back in the early 70's IIRC.

Holt got rid of white Australia in 66, then the Discrimination Act in the early 70's was the final nail in the coffin.

Well, I was close. I got to oz in 71 or 73, can't remember, I think it was 73.
Rough times for a non English speaking wog with dark skin.

Your skin is olive at best, you big whitey

I moved here in 93, was ridiculed constantly for my accent and for being a filthy whinging POM, and other things, such as early on while walking to class got blind side punched in the back of the head and knocked unconscious. Things didn't change until I was 15/16ish. And I was completely white and English speaking and from England. Compare this to where in my school in England I was quite popular and happy and a part of things, and generally a relatively normal kid.

And people wonder why I have continued to support England in the cricket

One thing I don't think many Aussies get is that if you take an interest in an immigrant's culture, and show it and them some respect, they are more likely to fully integrate into society. Ridicule them and their origins and they will cling on to their identity and stay segregated. They might even spurn the language.

I love Aus and Australians, especially the educated/wordly ones, but some of the bogan majority make me depressed.

I was constantly harassed in high school for being a bloody yank. When I quit high school and struck out on my own, I took to telling people I was Canadian.

squ1d wrote:Your skin is olive at best, you big whitey

I should get some photos from my youth, one in particular I look black.
I tan very fast and go very dark.
My brother on the other hand has snow white hair as a kid.
The difference was black and white.

I was fortunate not to have been physically picked on when I was a kid but I was also one of the top athletes at school at the time so that tended to intimidate the would be bullies. I guess its not easy to pick on someone that is faster, stronger, fitter and smarter than you.
Bullies alway look for the easy target or a new kid they figure they can take.
There was one idiot that did try, he was also one of the more capable athletes at school, he was third in the school IIRC in sports.
I was alternating between the number 1 and number 2 of the school in athletics. It changed depending on the day.
He found out fast that pushing someone doesn't hurt as much as a kick in the solar plexus.
the look on his face was priceless. He just stood there in shock.
Then things totally changed when a new kid came in to school.
He made all of us look like we were standing still. He was also a foot taller than anyone else. Really nice guy.

geonuc wrote:I was constantly harassed in high school for being a bloody yank. When I quit high school and struck out on my own, I took to telling people I was Canadian.

Where did you go to school?

FZR1KG wrote:I was fortunate not to have been physically picked on when I was a kid but I was also one of the top athletes at school at the time so that tended to intimidate the would be bullies. I guess its not easy to pick on someone that is faster, stronger, fitter and smarter than you.

So since you were so awesome, you didn't suffer the persecution then

squ1d wrote:

FZR1KG wrote:I was fortunate not to have been physically picked on when I was a kid but I was also one of the top athletes at school at the time so that tended to intimidate the would be bullies. I guess its not easy to pick on someone that is faster, stronger, fitter and smarter than you.

So since you were so awesome, you didn't suffer the persecution then

Not physically no.
Not that I thought I was awesome either, I was held back by school rules due to language barrier so was a year behind what I should have been.
I pretty much felt screwed over and anything but awesome. My father figured it was because I wasn't capable.
My sister got to enter school at the correct year but I didn't. She went to a different school though.

I am just looking back through the lens of time. I'm not bragging or minimising your case.

I got to deal with the racism thing differently.
Have a funny name, funny accent, ate funny food etc.
I didn't know aboutMcDonalds till I was about 16.
I was left out of most social events as well.
Had racism from the P.E. teacher as well.
As an example, even though I was one of the two top athletes for the age group I was never asked to do any of the athletic shows they put on for parents.
Inter school stuff was different so they put me into almost everything. I didn't understand why at the time but resented the treatment.
In physical tests the teacher got me to stop before I was done but let others keep going thus reducing my overall score, things like chin up reps, rope climbing, push ups etc. It was go till you can for everyone else but for me it was, ok, you're done now. I was given one attempt at test involving coordination, like throwing a ball into a barrel, everyone else got two.

So yeah, not being physically picked on didn't mean I didn't experience the rest of it.
Though there were a few cases of much older guys picking on me because I was a wog.
Its just that in my age group at school I didn't get physically attacked.

FZR1KG wrote:

geonuc wrote:I was constantly harassed in high school for being a bloody yank. When I quit high school and struck out on my own, I took to telling people I was Canadian.

Where did you go to school?

Miami High School. Gold Coast

If it makes y'all feel better, I was bullied by students and faculty in high school too not because of racism but because high school just sucks.

geonuc wrote:

FZR1KG wrote:

geonuc wrote:I was constantly harassed in high school for being a bloody yank. When I quit high school and struck out on my own, I took to telling people I was Canadian.

Where did you go to school?

Miami High School. Gold Coast

You went to an American sounding school in Australia?
That's just weird.

I hated high school. I spent most of it somewhere between suicidal and completely apathetic. Wrote lots of post apocalyptic stories where everyone died, but I survived. I know that sounds bad after things like Columbine, but it was truly just my method of escape. I never entertained any notions about hurting anyone. I just thought living in a world like The Terminator would be more entertaining than going to high school.

Life definitely got better after that. I don't understand people who feel like their high school years were the best years of their lives. I find that really sad. Unless it's one of the bullies, in which case I hope they suffer miserably.

SciFi Chick wrote:I hated high school. I spent most of it somewhere between suicidal and completely apathetic. Wrote lots of post apocalyptic stories where everyone died, but I survived. I know that sounds bad after things like Columbine, but it was truly just my method of escape. I never entertained any notions about hurting anyone. I just thought living in a world like The Terminator would be more entertaining than going to high school.

Life definitely got better after that. I don't understand people who feel like their high school years were the best years of their lives. I find that really sad. Unless it's one of the bullies, in which case I hope they suffer miserably.

Interestingly I was approached today by my high school cause they want to do a bio of me in an admissions packet. I'm sure the woman in charge is taken a little aback by my response which more or less says "I know you're a good school, but frankly my view of high school is I didn't like it but would've hated it more elsewhere. If it can just be a blurb about how I fell in love with astronomy reading books from the library or how awesome the music department is that's fine, but otherwise..."

Basically she wanted me to say how my high school inspired my career and adventurous spirit, and school itself never inspired neither.

Schools don't inspire students, teachers do.
Schools pay the teachers as little as they can get away with.
Sure the schools stay open but the education system is then standing on a long slippery slope with no safety lines.

FZR1KG wrote:Schools don't inspire students, teachers do.
Schools pay the teachers as little as they can get away with.
Sure the schools stay open but the education system is then standing on a long slippery slope with no safety lines.

Hah pretty much. We're now on a more honest version which involves my description saying I was more interested in reading astronomy books at the library than homework (very true) but I am not letting them say "the school encouraged Yvette to..." cause the school encouraged bupkis. If they want an endorsement though about my favorite teachers and how I liked that I could be a concert violinist and an astronomer and a Model UN person and in the musical (it was, in hindsight, a very good school for someone interested in a lot of things as they were very flexible), well then we can talk.

I think it's a subtle enough difference that they'll bite.

Back on the original topic btw, as someone who's the daughter of a refugee and an asylum seeker, people leave countries as refugees because people are shooting at them, not because the TV channels are better or some such crap. But then of course my family was the right color and was successful, so my experience on such topics is I don't "count" when folks want opinions on such situations.

Rommie wrote:Back on the original topic btw, as someone who's the daughter of a refugee and an asylum seeker, people leave countries as refugees because people are shooting at them, not because the TV channels are better or some such crap. But then of course my family was the right color and was successful, so my experience on such topics is I don't "count" when folks want opinions on such situations.

For many people that's true.
Those are legitimate cases, but I think of how many countries we went through that we could have settled in had we been refugees before we came to Australia.
The other issue is in many cases the rich can get out because they can pay but they are not always the ones in fear of death, some are just wanting better lifestyle. IOW, they could be able to apply for immigration rather than refugee status.
I'm not saying that's always the case but I met enough to wonder why I was meeting wealthy refugees instead of the poor ones.

I've met some genuine war refugees also. One in particular that stands out we nicknamed 'chopper'.
Partly because he had a really bad stutter from PTSD but mainly because he was a helicopter pilot working for Oz in Vietnam.
Captured, tortured, had his family horrifically tortured leaving permanent injuries, I met them too. The injuries were things no one wants to believe people can inflict on another.
Chopper was a school friend in engineering. We had many conversations about refugees etc.
His views influenced mine the most regarding the rich que jumping. According to him it was prevalent in Vietnam.
The other guy Bruce as we called him, I mentioned somewhere on FWIS how he got married for money.
He was one with rich parents. Had a pretty good life in Vietnam but they wanted a better one.
Bruce introduced me to other "refugees" that came because of a better life rather than as refugees.

FZR1KG wrote:You went to an American sounding school in Australia?
That's just weird.

Yeah, weird. It's in Miami, south of Surfers Paradise and north of Burleigh Heads.

I am curious after finding out that two of our more distinguished members are recent dunkees in the melting pot...
Just how many first/second generation immigrant members do we have? And I'm counting recent immigrants to
anywhere, not just the US...