FWIS3

We still might. But, there are really only 3 courses of action broadly speaking.
1. Things continue to get worse and we get violent revolution and/or anarchy which may lead to changes that are worse than what we have now or might improve things.
2. Society changes enough that we use peaceful means to change the income gap in much the same way we changed/are changing the race issues that almost brought about civil war in the 1960's. We create a system that actively continues to grow the middle class and allows for a path up from poverty.
3. We keep going the way we are going with worse and worse stagnation and destruction of the middle class. And then we wind up with a society that essentially has recreated serfs and bondage. The problem with this option is that it is an illusion of stability. Sooner or later it has to evolve towards either option 1 or 2.

Don't worry, the 2A will be there and the armed populace will prevent (1) from happening while trying to protect the right of their masters to defecate on the 99% of the population that are totally unworthy or their poop and they will thus consider it charity and their gift to the poor.

SciFiFisher wrote:We still might. But, there are really only 3 courses of action broadly speaking.
1. Things continue to get worse and we get violent revolution and/or anarchy which may lead to changes that are worse than what we have now or might improve things.
2. Society changes enough that we use peaceful means to change the income gap in much the same way we changed/are changing the race issues that almost brought about civil war in the 1960's. We create a system that actively continues to grow the middle class and allows for a path up from poverty.
3. We keep going the way we are going with worse and worse stagnation and destruction of the middle class. And then we wind up with a society that essentially has recreated serfs and bondage. The problem with this option is that it is an illusion of stability. Sooner or later it has to evolve towards either option 1 or 2.

Interesting options. My preference is number 2. But I am afraid I can see number 3 actually happening. In many respects it seems to be happening every day.

My preference is 2 as well. But my money's on 1 happening. Probably not a (very) violent revolution, but definitely a social one.

Think the 60s/70s, but turned up about three notches.

Jesus God I hope not. I don't want to see any of my friends die.

OldCM wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:We still might. But, there are really only 3 courses of action broadly speaking.
1. Things continue to get worse and we get violent revolution and/or anarchy which may lead to changes that are worse than what we have now or might improve things.
2. Society changes enough that we use peaceful means to change the income gap in much the same way we changed/are changing the race issues that almost brought about civil war in the 1960's. We create a system that actively continues to grow the middle class and allows for a path up from poverty.
3. We keep going the way we are going with worse and worse stagnation and destruction of the middle class. And then we wind up with a society that essentially has recreated serfs and bondage. The problem with this option is that it is an illusion of stability. Sooner or later it has to evolve towards either option 1 or 2.

Interesting options. My preference is number 2. But I am afraid I can see number 3 actually happening. In many respects it seems to be happening every day.

Agreed.

Um guys, from an outsides perspective, most people are already at (3).
You're just in denial.

FZR1KG wrote:Um guys, from an outsides perspective, most people are already at (3).
You're just in denial.

Seriously!

FZR1KG wrote:Um guys, from an outsides perspective, most people are already at (3).
You're just in denial.

On the road there, at least. I don't think it's all the way there, yet.

Which is a way of saying "things can and will still get worse."

I don't think its all the way either, what I wrote was that most people are already there.
By that I mean quite simply that the majority of people are already in such a circumstance but because the intensity of the situation isn't that great yet, they are in denial about it.

IOW it's not a case of slowly the population is being put in the serf class in terms of population percentage.
The percentage of the population is already high enough, what isn't that high is the level of discrepancy required to make people realise the actual situation they are in, though it's pretty obvious if they look at how long they could sustain on their own if all sources of income were to suddenly stop.
Most people survive just beyond their paycheck period.
The majority are in a one week period. Some are in a fortnightly period.

Back in the days of acknowledged serfdom a family could survive through the winter and part of the non bearing months totaling to over 5 months. Then they would restart the cycle. Thus if the lords suddenly dropped of the face of the Earth they would survive indefinitely.
One could argue back then it was the lords that needed the serfs to survive because they were the ones that produced the food.
Contrast that to what we have now.
A population so dependent on the wealthy "lords" that they couldn't survive more than a few weeks without support.

So I maintain that most people have no idea that they are already in (3) but they could realise in about a week if their masters decided to demonstrate that fact.

geonuc wrote:

OldCM wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:We still might. But, there are really only 3 courses of action broadly speaking.
1. Things continue to get worse and we get violent revolution and/or anarchy which may lead to changes that are worse than what we have now or might improve things.
2. Society changes enough that we use peaceful means to change the income gap in much the same way we changed/are changing the race issues that almost brought about civil war in the 1960's. We create a system that actively continues to grow the middle class and allows for a path up from poverty.
3. We keep going the way we are going with worse and worse stagnation and destruction of the middle class. And then we wind up with a society that essentially has recreated serfs and bondage. The problem with this option is that it is an illusion of stability. Sooner or later it has to evolve towards either option 1 or 2.

Interesting options. My preference is number 2. But I am afraid I can see number 3 actually happening. In many respects it seems to be happening every day.

Agreed.

Make that three votes.

FZR1KG wrote:You're just in denial.

By the way, in a couple of months, if you find yourself in denial, you've made a serious navigation error.

If you look at systems and do much in the way of systems analysis then you know that systems trend toward stasis or degeneration if more energy isn't inputted. Depending on where you are and your particular circumstances you may be closer to option 3 than you realize. To really jumble my metaphors the way the system gets more energy is through fission or fusion. Option 1 is fission and Option 2 is fusion. And because we are talking people and society here you might actually get combinations of all three occurring at the same time. Just compare the different regions of the country and look at what is happening in some of the inner cities.

Swift wrote:

FZR1KG wrote:You're just in denial.

By the way, in a couple of months, if you find yourself in denial, you've made a serious navigation error.

I knew I should have made that left at Albuquerque. lol

Option 4: The US will fall apart as states decide to go it on their own.

Not unfeasible, either, given that the size and economic circumstances of most US states put them on par with many countries, most of which are doing uite well by themselves.

Let's face it: the US was a nice dream whiule it lasted, but the polarisation of society is increasingly making it clear that the experiment will fail in the mid to long term.

Morrolan wrote:Option 4: The US will fall apart as states decide to go it on their own.

Not unfeasible, either, given that the size and economic circumstances of most US states put them on par with many countries, most of which are doing uite well by themselves.

Let's face it: the US was a nice dream whiule it lasted, but the polarisation of society is increasingly making it clear that the experiment will fail in the mid to long term.

In theory that could be an option but it could easily fall under option 1 - abrupt and violent change. I can't imagine something like that happening without a second civil war in the U.S.

Morrolan wrote:Option 4: The US will fall apart as states decide to go it on their own.

Not unfeasible, either, given that the size and economic circumstances of most US states put them on par with many countries, most of which are doing uite well by themselves.

Let's face it: the US was a nice dream whiule it lasted, but the polarisation of society is increasingly making it clear that the experiment will fail in the mid to long term.

Yeah, except I believe we already had a war over the question on whether States can leave the union 150 years ago, and we know how that turned out.

Honestly, if the Eurozone can hold it together I think the US will- regionalism is certainly on the rise globally, but the situation is much more dire in parts of the EU but these days I don't think they're going to be splitting up after all (though it really could've cone either way for a few years).