BMR Lite

[Swift]

Did it not store any codes in the OBD?

If you were interested, you could list (or PM me) the Make Model Year etc. and what you noted of the symptoms. I can check with mechanic buddies to see if there is a known issue or any TSB's in the data base.

I don't even know what the OBD is; they didn't check it, but the fellow from the dealer didn't think it worth checking if wasn't then showing the warnings.

It is a 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid and it is known to have brake system problems. I've already replaced both front "tone rings" (I think that's what they are called, they are the sensors for the ABS system) and the APU, which is the power unit for the hydraulic system that is part of the regenerative braking system. The internet is full of people complaining about brake system problems on these later Escape Hyrbids (I had no problem my 2005, but this one has been more difficult for the last couple of years).

[Thumper]

Ahhh, hybrid with a regenerative brake system adds a whole nother layer of, well....potential problems. Sorry about the job jargon. I actually thought about that while running last night. TSB: Technical Service Bulletin, what we affectionately call a "recall". When the number of complaints or issues with a certain system rises above a certain level, the manufacturer puts out a bulletin alerting their service techs of the problem, and the steps to solution. Certain categories that have major safety issues get more publicity and often the manufacturer has to try to track down the current owner, alert them of the issue and offer to repair or replace for free. OBD: On board diagnostics. There are multiple generations of this across vehicles of different ages. Basically when the "check engine" light come on, codes are saved in the system that can be retrieved and analyzed to help the techs diagnose the problem. Sometimes they are quite cryptic. Newer systems utilizing OnStar and such can "call" the dealer from the road automatically and tell them of the issue. What I can't understand is intermittent problems with symptoms and dash lights coming and going, but no codes are stored. If the light is not currently on, there is no code to look up. That's frustrating. Because you're basically waiting for the failure to get intense, possibly unsafe, before you can even try to diagnose it. To me that defeats the purpose of the OBD in the first place.

I'll ask a couple of my tech buddies, but sounds like they probably won't be much help. What are the current symptoms when it is "acting up."

[SciFiFisher]

The last time I had a car with intermittent issues that kept coming and going it turned out to be a circuit board issue. i.e. the circuit board worked when the car was cold. When the engine compartment heated up the hairline crack in the board separated and would cause the engine to stop. The technician (I use that term loosely) swore that couldn't be the problem because every time he hooked up the diagnosing tool to it he got a different code. In his mind since the onboard computer was "talking" to the diagnostic tool it couldn't possibly be an issue with the board. And no he did not offer to refund me for the O2 sensor and 2-3 other parts he replaced before realizing what the real problem was.

BTW.... NEVER BUY A PLYMOUTH VOYAGER. Of course, I realize that your problem may not correlate but it's worth considering if all the mechanical parts are looking and working fine.

[Swift]

I'll ask a couple of my tech buddies, but sounds like they probably won't be much help. What are the current symptoms when it is "acting up."

Thanks Thumper. The "symptoms" are not really symptoms; they are more Ford's equivalent to an over-active immune system.... I guess you could call it an "auto-immune disease".

I'll just go ahead and smack myself.

When the system detects problems with the brake system it shuts down antilock brakes and the regenerative braking, and goes into some sort of emergency mode. So, no ABS, no regenerative braking (so gas mileage goes down), and the brakes are only about half as effective as normal. It stops, but you have to be careful.

I couldn't tell you why they designed it this way.

Before the warning lights, I didn't have any problems.

By the way, it was fine this morning.

At Fisher - the mechanic thought it might be an electrical problem too, maybe some sort of intermittent bad contact. It is since November they last worked on it.... hopefully it's another three months before it does it again.

[Thumper]

I dabbled into it when I had a few minutes. Lots of user chatter about issues to be sure. Yeah, once the lights on the dash go on, the braking system goes into "limp mode" or as some called it, "peddle to the floor" mode, so all power and regenerative systems are disabled and you just have the normal friction brakes in the rear.

Some users reported a fix with reprogramming of the CPU and a proper bleeding that I guess is much more complicated than bleeding "normal" brakes. There seems to be some confusion or lack of information at certain dealerships. There does appear to be at least one TSB on the issue which would have been sent to all dealers. Other users complained about the exact same symptoms but the dealer fix was a $5000 replacement of the control unit.

And that's really unfortunate. Some just want to sell the thing and get something else. Can't hardly sell a car without brakes, spend 5K and then only get 7-8K out of it. I hope your intermittent problem goes away. I know you don't want to hear this but if it's functioning fine now, you might consider selling and getting something else. If I'd have listened to that advice last year I wouldn't be in Month 8 of this car disaster I'm currently in. Good luck.

[Swift]

I know you don't want to hear this but if it's functioning fine now, you might consider selling and getting something else.

I've had the same thought.

I already spent the $5k, at that moment in time it seemed the better choice than $20 for even a newer used car; I'm not sure if that was stupid or what, so at this point, I think I'm in "the dealer owes me" category. I would like to squeeze another year or two out of it.

We'll see....

[Thumper]

I was in the same race, gamble, game, whatever. And I lost.
I sure hope you do better.
I think you're in a better position than I was in with regards to the type of malfunction.

[Swift]

I was in the same race, gamble, game, whatever. And I lost.
I sure hope you do better.
I think you're in a better position than I was in with regards to the type of malfunction.

Last night, leaving work, the warning lights all came back on; repeated this morning, dropped off at dealer (mechanic was kidding me, as he was writing up the ticket "yep, still on".

We'll see what they find. They did comp me the rental car.

[Thumper]

Wonderful.

[geonuc]

I finally took the Toyota in to have the passenger airbag replaced - it was caught up in the massive airbag recall - and was reminded why I don't like dealer service. First appointment to have the bag replaced ended when they informed my wife when she got there that they didn't have any air bags in stock. The appointment was made specifically to replace it and it was written on the appointment. Jerks. Second appointment was more successful.

But ... the inevitable. The guy comes in to the waiting room with a five-page color printout of what was wrong with my car, totaling $1200 of work. See, they took it upon themselves to do a comprehensive check, which is not bad in of itself. Information is always good. But the list contained things that clearly didn't need to be done. The most obvious was replacing the wiper blades - I had just replaced them with fancy RainX blades, so that told me that they were fishing for business.

The most concerning, potentially, was a leaking water pump, which they said required immediate replacement to prevent overheating the engine. I declined. The car's engine maintains temperature fine, I don't see any messes on the driveway and I don't have to refill the radiator bottle. To be safe, when I got home I grabbed a flashlight and crawled under and on top of the engine, looking for signs of a leaky gasket or shaft seal. I didn't see anything except a little oil around the pan gasket but not enough to drip. They wanted over $500 to replace a water pump that wasn't leaking.

Bastards. And they wonder why people think mechanics are ripoff artists.

That said, it'll be my luck that the water pump fails on our upcoming trip to Oregon.

[SciFiFisher]

Geonuc - And I thought my dealership was bad when they charged me $40 for a "free" oil change on my new Sonata.
My other pet peeve with dealerships is the awesome customer service <sarcasm>. You make an appointment for a service that is supposed to take an hour. You show up on time. Three hours later the car is done.

[vendic]

I have this theory, let's call it the inverse intelligence theory.
It states that the smarter they make vehicle electronics, the dumber they make the mechanics.

This was clear when I had issues with the boat engine. There are no sensors on the fuel system at all. The diagnostics software says everything is running perfectly while the engine is spluttering and stalling. I could literally disconnect the fuel line and blow into it to get the engine to run smoother and it wouldn't see a thing. I stop and it stalls, apparently perfectly normally!
Yamaha then say's, hey, there is nothing wrong with your engine.
The software now does the thinking for the mechanics and the "Yamaha warranty approval team".
It's smarter than the people reading the data and as everyone knows, computers have no intelligence.

[SciFiFisher]

It's called a lack of critical thinking. Part of it is due to schools/parents/teachers focusing on teaching people to follow rules even when they don't fit the facts or the circumstances. We all have examples of it. I had a car that would stall and quit running after the engine warmed up. The mechanic insisted the first 4 times that it was something different each time. When I asked him why he insisted it was because his diagnostic tool was giving him a different error code each time. I suggested that perhaps the chip/on board computer might be faulty and he swore that it couldn't be that because if it were the diagnostic machine would not be able to read it. 4 different replaced items later he figures out that when the engine heated up the circuit board (which had a hairline crack in it) would expand enough to break the circuit and shut down the engine. 4 different times of driving the car away from the shop for about 5 miles and calling them to come and tow it back. 4 different replaced parts which the mechanic didn't even have the honesty and integrity to give a discount on or a refund for.

In Geonuc's case it sounds like out right fraud. They were hoping he was the trusting type and that he would just take their word for it that they needed to replace the parts. The scary part is that they are probably so crooked they wouldn't have even replaced the parts. Just taken the money and maybe hosed off the engine so it looked shiny.

[Thumper]

I had a very bad series of experiences with the Audi dealer. We no longer have the Audi. I was given a laundry list of things that needed repaired on a 3 year old Audi we had purchased new, totaling over $5000. I went through them with the service manager on the phone who apparently had no idea he was talking with someone who had even a rudimentary understanding of automobiles. I discounted and outright refuted several of his "diagnoses." I'm sure he was just going off a list of things you try to charge for based on age and mileage. Dealerships make their money in the service department. It was the last time I got anything dealer serviced except for pure warranty or recall (TSB) work. Sometimes I have to buy parts from the dealer, but that's the only money they get from me.

[SciFiFisher]

I had a very bad series of experiences with the Audi dealer. We no longer have the Audi. I was given a laundry list of things that needed repaired on a 3 year old Audi we had purchased new, totaling over $5000. I went through them with the service manager on the phone who apparently had no idea he was talking with someone who had even a rudimentary understanding of automobiles. I discounted and outright refuted several of his "diagnoses." I'm sure he was just going off a list of things you try to charge for based on age and mileage. Dealerships make their money in the service department. It was the last time I got anything dealer serviced except for pure warranty or recall (TSB) work. Sometimes I have to buy parts from the dealer, but that's the only money they get from me.

Depending on what it was there is actually a schedule of things you check/replace every X miles. I have noticed that some places just replace things without actually determining if they are actually worn out.

[Thumper]

Bingo.
But don't tell me "your rear differential axle seals are leaking," when they are clearly not. I said, "well I don't see any diff fluid on the garage floor. He says, "well sir, you see, the level of the fluid sits below the bottom of the seals so they won't leak while the vehicle is sitting in the garage" I said, "that may be true but how come I don't see any leaked fluid anywhere on the diff when I inspect it every 5000 miles nor have I noticed any drop in fluid in the last 3 year when I pull the fill plug and check the level?" He hems and haws, and I say, "Next!" "Ummmm, well, your headlight washer squirters are leaking..." "Next!"

[geonuc]

Depending on what it was there is actually a schedule of things you check/replace every X miles. I have noticed that some places just replace things without actually determining if they are actually worn out.

Yes, the manufacturer's maintenance schedule. The problem with a dealer saying this or that needs replacing based on the schedule is that they have no idea whether it was already done if the car is not routinely serviced at a dealer. I had a dealer tell me I need a new timing belt even though it was just replaced. They didn't ask whether it had been replaced, they just wrote it up as needing replacement. As I said, bastards.

[SciFiFisher]

Depending on what it was there is actually a schedule of things you check/replace every X miles. I have noticed that some places just replace things without actually determining if they are actually worn out.

Yes, the manufacturer's maintenance schedule. The problem with a dealer saying this or that needs replacing based on the schedule is that they have no idea whether it was already done if the car is not routinely serviced at a dealer. I had a dealer tell me I need a new timing belt even though it was just replaced. They didn't ask whether it had been replaced, they just wrote it up as needing replacement. As I said, bastards.

Crooked Bastards!

[Thumper]

I had a dealer tell me that my timing belt needed replaced. I said, "you can try, but my vehicle doesn't have a timing belt it has a timing chain."
"Er, umm, I mean your serpentine accessory belt."
"I have the brochure right here from when I bought the truck." It states that it has a new long lasting serpentine belt assembly with automatic tensioner that will be good for a 100K miles. This truck has 30K miles on it, the belt is worn out already? Is the tensioner at max?"

"Uhh, I'm just reading what the......"
"Is the belt cracked or damaged?"
"I'll have to check with the...."
"How much is this going to cost?"
"The belt is 45 dollars and it will cost 150 to install."
"I can get the belt for $14.99 and NAPA. And two guys with similar trucks tell me it takes all of 10 minutes to replace. How 'bout we skip that?"

[Thumper]

Part of my summer job duties involve going out to sites, meeting with one of my area techs and calibrating automatic traffic recording sites. I have 4 techs. I was with the newest one yesterday who still has some learning curve and attention to detail issues. As the procedure involves waiting for a calibrated truck to drive across the sensors, there is downtime between truck turnarounds depending on the site where the tech and I can shoot the breeze.

Somehow it comes out that he's a conspiracy theory wingnut and doesn't believe we landed on the Moon. I about retired right then and there. "You don't even want to start down this road with me."
I was calm and fairly polite, started in on some generalities and got into some specifics. Then asked him some questions, like why he believes that, where he got his info from, and if he'd done any personal research to try to verify anything. So he claims he just watched some stuff on TV then jumped to other conspiracies. So we had to talk about 911 and the "lack of any plane wreckage at the Pentagon site." I asked him if he had any idea what happens to a plane that crashes at 500MPH, and did he think that expert crash investigators did. Jump.
Next we're talking about Sandy Hook. I got sick to my stomach.

The truck came by a time or two and it was clear he didn't want to argue with me. I didn't push anything. We finished, went our separate ways, and I wondered what I had done to deserve this. Unfortunately, it alters and completely taints the way I feel about him.

[geonuc]

Unfortunately, it alters and completely taints the way I feel about him.

It should.

[SciFiFisher]

Unfortunately, it alters and completely taints the way I feel about him.

It should.

Ditto!

[SciFi Chick]

Is it unfortunate? Maybe it's good that you know he's a nut job up front. But I completely agree about how awkward that was. My sympathies.

[SciFiFisher]

Over the years I have learned there are some things I work really hard on not talking about at work, and infrequently outside of work, and those are politics, religion, sex, and the need for a standing army.

[code monkey]

yes, one can know too much about another. (one of the people who works at the pool has a sarah palin bumper sticker on his truck. I keep reminding myself that he's young and, with luck, can learn.)

is he competent within the confines of his job requirements? perhaps he has decent taste in music. or is kind to animals. you must find something positive about him or else you won't be able to stop thinking about his beliefs whenever you look at him. or come up with a way of laughing it off - 'oh yes, that's just jim being jim.'