Long live the king

Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:16 am

SciFiFisher wrote:
FZR1KG wrote:Remember that the Amiga was at the time far far cheaper (around $600 compared to about $6000), faster, had a linear memory model, had a graphics processor and blew the PC apart in performance by magnitudes especially in the graphics aspect. While the PC was still with CGA and EGA graphics cards barely doing simple 2D work, the Amiga was doing hires 3D in real time. It also had sound that was real sound, not a stupid beep controlled by on/off in software.



I loved my Amiga. It was a hand me down from my former FIL. It was years ahead of anything PC. Sadly, finding programs that ran on it where I was at was almost impossible. The nearest store that sold software and accessories for it was almost 300 miles from where I lived. And this was definitely pre-Ebay and Amazon. :o


You can get yer Amiga fix here.

Yup, the Amiga was years ahead of its time, it was actually the first GUI based Computer System that IMHO didn't suck. Too bad Commodore didn't know what to do with it.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:20 am

Gullible Jones wrote:You guys are starting to lose me. :lol:

FZ wrote:My laptop has Windows 8.1 and it can't even implement window re-sizing correctly.


Might have to do with Windows 8 leaning heavily on the GPU for everything graphical? If you have shoddy drivers or a shoddy GPU it may not perform well. Not sure why, maybe some kind of optimizations for GPU rendering that is hostile to CPUs.

If you think the situation re graphics is bad on Windows though, you should take a look at Linux. Right now the major Linux distros all use 3D desktops by default, and fast and stable 3D support does not exist on Linux for most hardware. Part of the reasoning was that "demand will create supply," i.e. showing that Linux graphics drivers are broken will result in them getting fixed... Nope, still broken today.

(The other part was "ZOMG end users want eyecandy!")

Actually I should start a new topic for that, you'll get a kick out of it.


If you ask me, they simply didn't implement the old API well, M$ tried to cram both the Old-Style API and the new "Metro Stuff" that is geared towards Mobile systems on the same OS. Wouldn't be surprised if some obscure part of the API was implemented somewhat differently, and if you recompile yer it with the latest version of Visual Whatever Studio it would work.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby FZR1KG » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:28 am

Sigma_Orionis wrote:Yup, the Amiga was years ahead of its time, it was actually the first GUI based Computer System that IMHO didn't suck. Too bad Commodore didn't know what to do with it.


Got to love the total lack of ability for non technical people to sell a product years ahead of its time.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:33 am

Well, they weren't the only ones.

There's also the Atari ST

Not as technically advanced as the Amiga, but also pretty good.

My point is, Honeywell's strong points were never general purpose computers, they neglected a jewel like Multics. all Honeywell/Bull did was sell IBM mainframe compatible stuff. so they neglected and killed Multics.

Commodore was never really interested in anything different than the home market. The Amiga had a niche as a Video Producing system (aka Video Toaster) with no help at all from Commodore.

Atari never seriously tried to make their ST systems serious contenders, Apple never had to worry about competition from either the Amiga or the ST, and of course neither were the IBM PC compatible manufacturers, or even Microsoft.

Besides, geeks couldn't sell water to a beduoin, just ask AT&T. Their 3B series was actually pretty good, they must have sold 100 of them. They had a PC that could also use AT&T Unix which could have been a contender against something like SCO. AT&T didn't even try.

Edited for Clarity (once) and Zee posted while finishing the post :P
Last edited by Sigma_Orionis on Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby FZR1KG » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:38 am

Sigma_Orionis wrote:If you ask me, they simply didn't implement the old API well, M$ tried to cram both the Old-Style API and the new "Metro Stuff" that is geared towards Mobile systems on the same OS. Wouldn't be surprised if some obscure part of the API was implemented somewhat differently, and if you recompile yer it with the latest version of Visual Whatever Studio it would work.


You're about spot on here.
The problem of course is that MegaSlow doesn't document many O/S features and then changes support regularly.
I started a project in C++ 2005, it was possible to make it work under C++ 2008 but fails miserably in C++2010.
Dates or versions may be a bit out as I'm going on memory.
This was the interface to the PSoC device.

What good is compatibility in CPU when you can't even make one revision of a C++ compiler be compatible with an update from the same company.
Also, the exe won't work in WindOoze 8 even though it compiled without errors.
So in a few years we have total lack in program - O/S compatibility but are making decisions that revolve around the fear that, "oh no, the CPU instruction set must be compatible or we lose our software base".
Whatever.
Fucking wankers.

Still looks like the MacroScale O/S is losing flavour now.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:46 am

Assuming that in a few years the old Win32, Win64 api dies, I guess you'll have to turn to ReactOS :P
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:13 pm

Damn I'm pissed off.

Why?

The first system that was proposed to have a "layered kernel" was the THE Multiprogramming System guess who led the team? Edsger W. Dijkstra! they managed to beat Multics by one year! GRRRRR! :P
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Re: Long live the king

Postby FZR1KG » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:29 pm

Speaking of OS's.

I'm so damned volatile right now it's not funny. The PC is looking soon to be a long range target...if I had a gun.

Why?
BSD

I'm developing code on Microsofts C++, 2013 edition to communicate with my project and it seems that for a program development and debugging environment, someone forgot to use vector mapping for exception faults.

What does this mean in layman's terms?

Well, if something generates an exception fault that is un-handled (like say a coms read when the coms port is closed) the system does the BSD and everything is lost due to a restart. This gives a DCP_violation exception for that. yay fucking me.

This I find particularly disturbing because its also a security issue.
All someone has to do is write code that has exception handlers in it for various faults and when an exception happens, it now has access to a different programs data via exception handlers. Not your typical security flaw but if it someone writes code that deliberately generates exception faults suddenly it also gets to have access to things it really shouldn't. I'm also betting that as an OS microstuffed gives higher privilege access to exception handlers. That's pretty standard because the OS is meant to vector all exceptions to prevent things like this ever happening. Since it's happening I'm also thinking they haven't reduced access rights on exception faults. But, I could be wrong as I'm just guessing that if you do one thing dumb you'll follow it through to completion.

Which I find interesting because one of my jobs decades ago that I got a written warning over, was crashing a VME based power station system by using RS232 to communicate with the system. I was writing code on hardware designed by the owner of the company but he didn't get the timing right due to bad choice in crystals for the RS232 baud rate. it was close, but no cigar. This generated the occasional framing error in coms. The system programmer knew little...strike that. He knew nothing about exception handling so did a global disable interrupts hoping that would fix things.
Needless to say it didn't.
So when the VME system generated a framing error the system would crash.
I worked out why it crashed, told the system programmer what the problem was got it resolved, and the owner/boss gives me a written warning because I originally crashed the system, just for good measure. Tells me I should file it in my personal files. I scrunched it up and threw it in his bin and said, "it's filed".
I quit shortly after that. lol

In my case I think this issue is in the RS232 to USB driver by prolific. Which I naturally can't do much about other than layering try() catch() statements everywhere in the hope it works to get one. A very slow process since every time you miss it involves a long delay while the computer restarts.

Speaking of restarts. Who the hell makes a compiler that doesn't save files first before compiling?
Microsoft. That's who. I made a bunch of modifications and got the dreaded BSD and lost it all.
Typically a compiler saves all working files then compiles them. I've had two incidents so far where that wasn't the case.
First one by accident, second to verify.
Now I save all files before compiling and running.
Classy stuff.

In other news, it looks like I might be getting credited on Cypress's AP note for the bootloader fix.
This seems to have been a major flaw and I've been told they are very happy someone worked it out.

So far I've been at this for over a month. Fixed issues with the Cypress bootloader, found problems with C++ from Microsoft and devised workarounds and in all that time I've almost spent a few hours actually doing what the fuck I was meant to but couldn't because of all this other mother fucking shit!

I would have been better off re-writing the whole code.

Oh yeah, microsoft c++, " Please wait, we are creating a fucking problem for you".
Last edited by FZR1KG on Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:13 pm

Ah yes, that driver you mentioned that existed for Vista but Prolific refused to support for Windows 8, could pretty well be. Let me guess, your USB-Serial Adapter uses either the PL-2303HXA or PL-2303X chips and those were declared EOL by Prolific.

That Sucks. Sounds as much fun as licking a metal cheese grinder.

Stay away from the shotgun. I presume that getting another USB-Serial adapter is not practical for whatever reason right?

I also remember that incident with the cowboy that disabled all interrupts. You mentioned the sucker was pretty proud of that.

FZR1KG wrote:Which I find interesting because one of my jobs decades ago that I got a written warning over, was crashing a VME based power station system by using RS232 to communicate with the system. I was writing code on hardware designed by the owner of the company but he didn't get the timing right due to bad choice in crystals for the RS232 baud rate. it was close, but no cigar. This generated the occasional framing error in coms. The system programmer knew little...strike that. He knew nothing about exception handling so did a global disable interrupts hoping that would fix things.
Needless to say it didn't.
So when the VME system generated a framing error the system would crash.
I worked out why it crashed, told the system programmer what the problem was and the owner/boss gives me a written warning because I crashed the system just for good measure. Tells me I should file it in my personal files. I scrunched it up and threw it in his bin and said, "it's filed".
I quit shortly after that. lol


Sounds like Mr. Mono's favorite Sales Manager, the kind that deserves being locked in a DataCenter while the FM-200 does its thing. (and its ecological!, no pollution! too bad you still have to take the trash out when its done)

BTW that's a VME? nothing to do with the VMEBus I presume
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Re: Long live the king

Postby FZR1KG » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:40 am

That's it. The VME bus.
It's now 9:40 and I'm so damned exhausted I'm going to sleep.
I hate debugging someone else's shit.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby FZR1KG » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:00 pm

Oh yeah, and you got the details right about the USB to RS232 driver.
I may just have to get a different cable.
Don't you just love perfectly good hardware being made obsolete by software?

Got up about 1:30am last night, had trouble sleeping due to the brain still coding in assembler and C trying to track down stupid bugs.
Got a bit further, re-wrote some routines that I'm trying to debug, without a debugger and got a BSOD at 5:30am.
Called it quits and am back up (10:30am) to go again.

This BSOD was: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 82(v=vs.85).aspx

Got to love the reply.

[snarky whinny asshole voice]
If you received a blue screen error, or stop code, the computer has shut down abruptly to protect itself from data loss.
Cause:
A driver has called IoCompleteRequest to ask that an IRP be completed, but the packet has already been completed.
OMFG!!!!
[/snarky whinny asshole voice]

[annoying (Fran Drescher) Nanny voice]
OMF....G!!!!!
Someone tried to do something that's already been doooooone.
call the fucking cavalrrrryyyyy
It's a national fucking disasterrrrrr
Lets do a BSOD and lose everything as a way to stop losing dataaaaaaaa
I'm soooooo fucking annoyyying and stupiiiiiiiiid
[/annoying (Fran Drescher) Nanny voice]


Yeah, Microsofts response to a small driver issue is to self destruct to avoid possible injury. w.t.f.
Who the fuck comes up with this shit?

And I found out about the compiler issue. My bad. It might save files on compilation in some twisted microsoft way.
this morning I started C++ 2013 and a message popped up.
It wanted to restore a possibly damaged file as a result of the BSOD last night.
Instead of clicking restore, which I may have done previously, I read the full message.
It wanted to restore one of my project files from Sunday 4:46pm
Now, I "save all" every time I run the compiler code. So why the fuck it wants to pic a file from Sunday afternoon when the latest save was Tuesday near sunrise is totally beyond me.
Obviously clicking "restore" sends you back two days in development.

No, I'm not making this shit up.
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:59 pm

Ah yes, the Microsoft Way. "Let's kill the Patient in order to save his/her/its life".

"We use a MultiTasking, MultiThreaded MicroKernel, we're so cool that we based on CMU's Mach Kernel so we can say we can play the Big Leagues like Apple or OSF, but we mucked it up so badly that everytime we patch anything we have reboot...... Now we have to wonder why everyone says we suck" :P The guys who worked on Tandem's Guardian, or Stratus' VOS must get a real kick everytime they have to reboot their Windows based workstations......

Sometimes I wonder wonder what Dave Cutler has to say about it. (Ssshhh! don't tell GJ, but he designed VMS....And he always bitched about Unix, and he ends up working for M$ and porting NT to the Alpha Processor, talk about ironic.... :P)
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Cyborg Girl » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:05 pm

I know about Dave Cutler. :P There's a reason the NT kernel uses CamelCase everywhere.

However, Windows Vista and later are supposed to have at least some level of driver sandboxing, to prevent things from imploding when one of the infamous third-party drivers keels over and dies. Not sure how well it usually works though, as I've never seen it in action.

Also I have to ask, doesn't Windows have anything like a kernel oops? On Linux, a kernel thread can crash with a backtrace in a way that's not immediately fatal. You can look at the backtrace in the system log, figure out what happened, shut down gracefully before further damage occurs, and remove or replace the offending hardware. This still sucks, but at least you get time to save files. :shock:

Edit: though to be fair UNIX has had worse issues. Sigma, remember the bug with FreeBSD 6.x and USB sticks? Remove a USB drive without unmounting it, get an instant kernel panic? :lol:
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:24 pm

Gullible Jones wrote:Edit: though to be fair UNIX has had worse issues. Sigma, remember the bug with FreeBSD 6.x and USB sticks? Remove a USB drive without unmounting it, get an instant kernel panic? :lol:


Nope, I haven't used FreeBSD in production since 4.X, just googled it, pretty embarassing........


[NMI]but irrelevant, everyone knows that BSD is holy and Microsoft is Mud, IF BSD actually DID something like that, and it's just YOUR word and some dogbreaths that are probably disgruntled Linux FanBois against the Holy Grail of BSD (all KNEEL NOW :P) it's a design feature, not a bug snoot:[/NMI]
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Re: Long live the king

Postby FZR1KG » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:01 pm

When you get semi talented individuals or people with more reputation than skill things get like this.
Another problem is promotion by incompetence.

That VME system I was describing was a classic case.
That was a cluster fuck beyond the words cluster fuck.
I was the senior design engineer for a company contracted by a major multinational to do development work.
Because we solved some pretty long standing issues we attracted the attention of the people at the top.
I was asked to interface with some equipment they had prototyped. They sent in three or four units. Big fuckers.
I interfaced to one which was a total nightmare as it's documentation was in Japanese. So I reverse engineered it.
They took that unit for testing and asked me to more for the rest of the units.
That's when the problems really started.

Each unit was different. Not only different in software but had various versions o custom hardware as well.
When I told them this (with the required proof) they re-negotiated the contact to have me reverse engineer each unit individually.
yes, that's right. They paid me to reverse engineer their own prototypes.

It gets worse.
Some of these ran a completely different protocol. Since there was no interfacing equipment (that's what I was developing), I couldn't see any data streams and that meant reverse engineering is near impossible without major investment. So they found some documentation that might help. Thousands of pages long and sent it to me. Um, I did mention this was in Japanese. I tried to be polite. I really did.
I asked for a translation and they tell me to let them know which parts I want translated and they would do it, because translating the whole thing was going to take too long.
Time kept ticking and this was an urgent job so I basically said to them, how the fuck am I meant to know which parts in the 2000 or so pages are relevant to me making this work considering I can't read any of it.
Their solution was to send an engineer from Japan to be there live to translate anything I might need. So I basically told him what I was doing and what I needed to do and he would find anything that related to that and translate it. He read motor bike magazines for near a month with the occasional bit of translation. That was a pretty good compromise.

Then he noticed the VME system crashing he asked why it was crashing. I told him it could be anything that affected the system. Even data cables introduce artifacts that can cause errors. At that point he was authorized to contract me to research into making an error free cable. I could have been rich...if only I was a greedy narcissistic asshole willing to siphon money knowing knowing it was futile.
But wait, there's more!

So like I said, we attracted the attention of the men at the top. I mean the real top. For some god knows reason, the CEO had pet project he was working on. A contact less method to read high currents by the use of the Faraday effect that changes the polarization of light in a material dependent on the magnetic field.
So he came from Japan with his entourage to discuss it with our company.

The meeting was between the Japanese crew and my boss, the owner of the company I was working for.
When it became clear that this was getting out of his depth I was called in to give my advice.

I learned several things that day. The first, it matters not some much what you say to a high ranking Japanese person , but how you say it.
He wanted to use a 24 bit ADC directly to read the uV signals in order to sample the light incidence and thus the current flow.
I said that it wouldn't work and had too many issues at the conception stage including the cost of a 24bit ADC (this was 30 years ago and these things were not cheap at that time). The resolution would be limited to the last few bits, the missing codes, linearity, quantization noise would all mess the readings up and they would have to over sample to make up for the low resolution which would mean a faster ADC and at the time that may prove to be near impossible to get and might spark a research problem on it's own etc etc.
Basically highlighted the stupidity of the approach when a cheaper and far more robust alternative was easily available in the way of a low noise op-amp coupled with a high speed 8 bit ADC and over sample that to achieve how much resolution you want.
Now, I wasn't actually rude but I didn't hold back at describing the futility of his proposed approach.
The six or so little Japanese guys orbiting the CEO looked like they were about to pull out their swords and slice me up for this great insult!
lol
Needless to say, they didn't do anything with that project.
Or if they did it didn't work unless they used my approach (or another equally viable one).
I should check to see if someone managed to get it done. It's been 30 years now.
Maybe they learned something.
I'm however still poor lowly engineer so clearly I've learned nothing...
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Cyborg Girl » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:44 pm

FZ wrote:At that point he was authorized to contract me to research into making an error free cable.


AAAAAH no more good sir please I beg you
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:26 pm

FZR1KG wrote:When you get semi talented individuals or people with more reputation than skill things get like this.
Another problem is promotion by incompetence.


It's called The Dilbert Principle

FZR1KG wrote:That VME system I was describing was a classic case.
That was a cluster fuck beyond the words cluster fuck.


Had to read that twice, I first thought you said that the VME Bus sucked and from what little I know of it didn't sound THAT bad. The second time I read it I realized you meant THAT VME system in particular right? :)

FZR1KG wrote:I was the senior design engineer for a company contracted by a major multinational to do development work.
Because we solved some pretty long standing issues we attracted the attention of the people at the top.
I was asked to interface with some equipment they had prototyped. They sent in three or four units. Big fuckers.
I interfaced to one which was a total nightmare as it's documentation was in Japanese. So I reverse engineered it.
They took that unit for testing and asked me to more for the rest of the units.
That's when the problems really started.

Each unit was different. Not only different in software but had various versions o custom hardware as well.
When I told them this (with the required proof) they re-negotiated the contact to have me reverse engineer each unit individually.
yes, that's right. They paid me to reverse engineer their own prototypes.



Gee I guess that means they had three different teams building three different prototypes, each one independently. What was it, a Beauty Contest? I know, I know, three different divisions of the same keiretsu competing for the job!.

FZR1KG wrote:It gets worse.
Some of these ran a completely different protocol. Since there was no interfacing equipment (that's what I was developing), I couldn't see any data streams and that meant reverse engineering is near impossible without major investment. So they found some documentation that might help. Thousands of pages long and sent it to me. Um, I did mention this was in Japanese. I tried to be polite. I really did.
I asked for a translation and they tell me to let them know which parts I want translated and they would do it, because translating the whole thing was going to take too long.
Time kept ticking and this was an urgent job so I basically said to them, how the fuck am I meant to know which parts in the 2000 or so pages are relevant to me making this work considering I can't read any of it.
Their solution was to send an engineer from Japan to be there live to translate anything I might need. So I basically told him what I was doing and what I needed to do and he would find anything that related to that and translate it. He read motor bike magazines for near a month with the occasional bit of translation. That was a pretty good compromise.


Ah yes, it was cheaper to have a guy flown in from Japan to read Motor Bike Magazines for a month, than to send the damned thing to a translator, makes perfect sense. IF time was so pressing, why NOT send a guy to work on the actual translation while he told you what you needed? If the damned thing was so important and complex enough that they needed outside help where the "Lingua Franca" is English, it would make sense to have that translation done. Nope, too reasonable, to the point of being suspicious. A project important enough to have the top brass interested gets treated like that, Corporate stupidity IS universal ain't it?

But these guys invented SMED Lean Manufacturing and Lord Deming taught them. Any MBA would tell you to shut up, smile and only answer "Thank you sir, may I please have another?"

FZR1KG wrote:Then he noticed the VME system crashing he asked why it was crashing. I told him it could be anything that affected the system. Even data cables introduce artifacts that can cause errors. At that point he was authorized to contract me to research into making an error free cable. I could have been rich...if only I was a greedy narcissistic asshole willing to siphon money knowing knowing it was futile.
But wait, there's more!


Whiny Bleeding Heart Pinko Commie Liberal, serves you right :P

FZR1KG wrote:So like I said, we attracted the attention of the men at the top. I mean the real top. For some god knows reason, the CEO had pet project he was working on. A contact less method to read high currents by the use of the Faraday effect that changes the polarization of light in a material dependent on the magnetic field.
So he came from Japan with his entourage to discuss it with our company.


And so Zeus descended from Olympus to grant the lowly working class stiff unworthy of even attempting to fix Zeus' PC, the privilege of gazing into Zeus' grandeur and listening to his pearls of wisdom....... roll:

FZR1KG wrote:The meeting was between the Japanese crew and my boss, the owner of the company I was working for.
When it became clear that this was getting out of his depth I was called in to give my advice.

I learned several things that day. The first, it matters not some much what you say to a high ranking Japanese person , but how you say it.


Well, at least he'll pay attention if you say it the right way. Down here, it don't matter how you say it, if it means money, the answer is no and it's your fault.....

FZR1KG wrote:He wanted to use a 24 bit ADC directly to read the uV signals in order to sample the light incidence and thus the current flow.
I said that it wouldn't work and had too many issues at the conception stage including the cost of a 24bit ADC (this was 30 years ago and these things were not cheap at that time). The resolution would be limited to the last few bits, the missing codes, linearity, quantization noise would all mess the readings up and they would have to over sample to make up for the low resolution which would mean a faster ADC and at the time that may prove to be near impossible to get and might spark a research problem on it's own etc etc.
Basically highlighted the stupidity of the approach when a cheaper and far more robust alternative was easily available in the way of a low noise op-amp coupled with a high speed 8 bit ADC and over sample that to achieve how much resolution you want.
Now, I wasn't actually rude but I didn't hold back at describing the futility of his proposed approach.
The six or so little Japanese guys orbiting the CEO looked like they were about to pull out their swords and slice me up for this great insult!
lol


Shocking! the CEO just was told he was an idiot by a Gaijin Working Class Stiff. Such arrogance! an offense like this can only be cleansed in BLOOD! :ak:

FZR1KG wrote:Needless to say, they didn't do anything with that project.
Or if they did it didn't work unless they used my approach (or another equally viable one).
I should check to see if someone managed to get it done. It's been 30 years now.
Maybe they learned something.


And yer boss told you that because of your rude manners, they lost the deal of a lifetime......It was all your fault

FZR1KG wrote:I'm however still poor lowly engineer so clearly I've learned nothing...


And still is :P
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Re: Long live the king

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:05 pm

Hail to the King Baby!

Multics Lives

They managed to boot it successfully on the emulator and even compiled and ran a small PL/I Program.-
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