FWIS3

due to people not vaccinating their kids fifteen years ago.

And yet we still have morons like Jenny McCarthy advocating no vaccinations.

SciFi Chick wrote:due to people not vaccinating their kids fifteen years ago.

And yet we still have morons like Jenny McCarthy advocating no vaccinations.

It's particularly amusing that the article is on Fox News, given their anti-science attitude. I suspect they spread the vaccine fear as much as anyone.

We have one of these outbreaks in NL as well. What's odd about it I've noticed is you have two extreme groups of people joining together for this kind of derp- the super right-wing and the super left-wing hippies, both clearly know better than "the authorities."

What gets me is I've talked to one or two people who refuse to immunize their kids and then cite how it's their family's decision and look how healthy their kid is blah blah, while clearly not understanding that such a decision puts other children in danger. There are plenty of kids out there who can't get vaccines due to weak immune systems so way to wreck their heard immunity. (One was a traveling family, and they were going to go with their kid to India. I'm sure that will end well.)

The other thing I don't get though is ok, I can understand at the hight of the autism scare before the study that claimed otherwise was discredited why one might hold off on immunizations... but that was 15 years ago, and nothing is stopping you from taking in your teenager to get her shots now. But people still won't.

The problem with Bullshit is that the stink lasts a long time.

Herd immunity will occur. Either through natural selection or through the modern day vaccination process. What these people don't realize is that prior to modern medicine the herd simply had to accept that there were going to be losses while acquiring that immunity. When enough of the smartest idiots in the room die the support for doing things "naturally" will lose it's appeal.

Rommie wrote:What gets me is I've talked to one or two people who refuse to immunize their kids and then cite how it's their family's decision and look how healthy their kid is blah blah, while clearly not understanding that such a decision puts other children in danger. There are plenty of kids out there who can't get vaccines due to weak immune systems so way to wreck their heard immunity. (One was a traveling family, and they were going to go with their kid to India. I'm sure that will end well.)

Part of the problem is that it might end well (or at least not bad, let me explain). Many of the kids who are not vaccinated won't get sick, or will get sick but won't die, and so the parents will go "see, that was unneccessary". It reinforces the bad behavior.

Rommie wrote:The other thing I don't get though is ok, I can understand at the hight of the autism scare before the study that claimed otherwise was discredited why one might hold off on immunizations... but that was 15 years ago,

But that's exactly what they want you to believe.

SciFiFisher wrote:Herd immunity will occur. Either through natural selection or through the modern day vaccination process. What these people don't realize is that prior to modern medicine the herd simply had to accept that there were going to be losses while acquiring that immunity. When enough of the smartest idiots in the room die the support for doing things "naturally" will lose it's appeal.

You are the medical professional, but I think there is more to it than that. A lot of these unvaccinated kids won't die, but when they get ill, if nothing else it will cost big amounts of money. This is going to sound cold, but we (as a society) think nothing of spending millions to save a single premature baby other child, but won't make sure millions of kids have adequate health care.

So one of the consequences is a much greater cost, whether paid for by the government or insurance companies, but either way, it is ultimately us.

Swift wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:Herd immunity will occur. Either through natural selection or through the modern day vaccination process. What these people don't realize is that prior to modern medicine the herd simply had to accept that there were going to be losses while acquiring that immunity. When enough of the smartest idiots in the room die the support for doing things "naturally" will lose it's appeal.

You are the medical professional, but I think there is more to it than that. A lot of these unvaccinated kids won't die, but when they get ill, if nothing else it will cost big amounts of money. This is going to sound cold, but we (as a society) think nothing of spending millions to save a single premature baby other child, but won't make sure millions of kids have adequate health care.

So one of the consequences is a much greater cost, whether paid for by the government or insurance companies, but either way, it is ultimately us.

You raise a valid point. Acquiring herd immunity may be more costly if done au naturale. But, the reason I beleive that it will take people dying as a direct result is because it usually takes hugely shocking events to create enough public interest in creating change. Otherwise change happens slowly and incremently with a two steps forward and one step backwards progress.

And this is why I'm very strongly in favour of mandatory vaccination, except in cases where it can be shown that vaccination would harm the child (one of my friends has always been allergic, for example).

Good luck with that.

Well, we seem to be doing it in Ottawa:

Ottawa Public Health began to send 5,457 letters late last month to parents who hadn’t provided documentation to indicate that their children had received immunizations for diseases s such as rubella, measles and mumps. It was their third warning.

The letters give about a week for recipients to contact the health unit and provide the information, said Eric Leclair, head of health information co-ordination for Ottawa Public Health.

Under the Immunization of School Pupils Act, the students face a suspension of 20 school days if proof isn’t given. Such letters have been sent out since the enactment of the legislation, Leclair said, and the current version of the Act dates back to 1990.

Link

The Supreme Canuck wrote:Well, we seem to be doing it in Ottawa:

Ottawa Public Health began to send 5,457 letters late last month to parents who hadn’t provided documentation to indicate that their children had received immunizations for diseases s such as rubella, measles and mumps. It was their third warning.

The letters give about a week for recipients to contact the health unit and provide the information, said Eric Leclair, head of health information co-ordination for Ottawa Public Health.

Under the Immunization of School Pupils Act, the students face a suspension of 20 school days if proof isn’t given. Such letters have been sent out since the enactment of the legislation, Leclair said, and the current version of the Act dates back to 1990.

Link

Thats because you're living in a communist socialist country full of losers and no freeloaders. Thats why Ayn Rand didn't live in Canada. Case closed any argument you have is defeated because I pulled the Rand card and it defeats logic always since logic cannot explain the illogical. Oh and God and Jesus don't support this either.

Swift wrote:It's particularly amusing that the article is on Fox News, given their anti-science attitude. I suspect they spread the vaccine fear as much as anyone.

POX news?
Oh never mind, its my psychic dyslexia reading the true meaning into things again.

The Supreme Canuck wrote:And this is why I'm very strongly in favour of mandatory vaccination, except in cases where it can be shown that vaccination would harm the child (one of my friends has always been allergic, for example).

See, what I don't get is back when I went to school you were required to get vaccinations or else you weren't allowed in school, end of story. I remember having to go for a slew of booster shots right at the start of kindergarten for this reason.

I further remember a girl who came to our school in 9th grade whose childhood immunization records were lost in a fire... and there was no way around her remaining in our school except for going in and getting every single shot again. It was that important, and didn't matter if it was public or private school, you still had to do it (and clearly if anyone could've opted out that girl would've opted not to get like ten shots she didn't need). I always assumed this was normal.

I guess this was a state of Pennsylvania thing then- does anyone else recall similar?

Rommie

Most schools ban children who are not immunized. In some cases they allow children whose parents have religious objections or who are truly allergic. When a suspected outbreak occurs they suspend the children who are not immunized. We can't mandate vaccinations but we can restrict your childs ability to act as a patient zero or risk exposing them to a patient zero because they are not immune. As a scientist you can guess what that does to the herd immunity.

But, in cases where the schools are especially vigilant the parents either home school or send thier children to schools ran by a religious group who do not beleive in vaccinations. Again, this impacts herd immunity.

Of course, as long as you don't worry too much about individuals the main body of the group is generally protected. The CDC projects that the average number of flu deaths each year is approximately 3 to 50 thousands each year depending on the virulence of that years strain. That's approx .16% of the population of the US. if the maximum number is used. On an average year less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the population is at risk.

With some of the childhood diseases like measles the number might be slightly higher (maybe not too). So, from a public policy POV it's not something the administration or the CDC is going to get real excited about. Especially since we have a love/hate relationship in this country with mandating things that are good for you but violate your personal liberty.