Harassment in Atheist Community

[Cyborg Girl]

What bugs me is how quickly the "atheist movement" became a little too well organized for my taste. Reading through some of the blogs, the words "the good of the movement" sounded to me too much like a crusade. And the moment that becomes the norm, IMHO the "atheist movement" becomes self-defeating.

This. But IMO it was something of a crusade from the start. It wasn't about tolerance and social progress; it was about why their opinion is the One True Way, i.e. the same pompous crap we see from religious institutions.

I am an atheist. So what? Religion (or lack thereof) is a really intensely personal thing, and expounding the virtues of your religion (or lack thereof) over everyone else's is stupid. If it harms no one, let it be, for God's sake!

That said, I have to respect PZ Meyers for putting his money where his mouth is re feminism, and actually doing the right thing in this case. Even if Shermer is never convicted or even charged, people will know what he is.

I would gently add that there are woman who take advantage of the "poor me" (Monica Lewinski anyone?). There is no question that sexism exists but it's not wholly onesided

Umm, Lewinski was what, twenty-something? Clinton was in his fifties, and in a position of authority. Even if Lewinski approached him first, what he did was pretty amoral.

Edit: also I think the vast, vast majority of sexist thinking is basically misogynistic in nature, even when it ends up hurting men.

[Sigma_Orionis]

This. But IMO it was something of a crusade from the start. It wasn't about tolerance and social progress; it was about why their opinion is the One True Way, i.e. the same pompous crap we see from religious institutions.

It wasn't like that originally, when I originally read Sagan's "Candle in the Dark", it was about reason, not about anti-religion.

IMHO, Basically, it was a response to the fact that during George W. Bush's administration, the religious right went overboard.

I think that after his 8 years were up and the God Squad was left without a sympathetic ear in the white house, the "Atheist Movement" suddenly found itself with no enemy to fight.


As for the Clinton-Lewinsky thing, IF Ms. Lewinsky approached him first (I really don't know, nor care). I think that he was simply thinking with the wrong head. Happens to people in power way too often. I guess it's a secondary effect of the "deference" you get from people around you when you are in such a position. From what I have seen from people in those positions, since even their most stupid idea is celebrated, it's very easy to lose perspective. Of course, that's no excuse. His duty in office required him to be better than that.

[Rommie]

This. But IMO it was something of a crusade from the start. It wasn't about tolerance and social progress; it was about why their opinion is the One True Way, i.e. the same pompous crap we see from religious institutions.

It wasn't like that originally, when I originally read Sagan's "Candle in the Dark", it was about reason, not about anti-religion.

IMHO, Basically, it was a response to the fact that during George W. Bush's administration, the religious right went overboard.

I think that after his 8 years were up and the God Squad was left without a sympathetic ear in the white house, the "Atheist Movement" suddenly found itself with no enemy to fight.


As for the Clinton-Lewinsky thing, IF Ms. Lewinsky approached him first (I really don't know, nor care). I think that he was simply thinking with the wrong head. Happens to people in power way too often. I guess it's a secondary effect of the "deference" you get from people around you when you are in such a position. From what I have seen from people in those positions, since even their most stupid idea is celebrated, it's very easy to lose perspective. Of course, that's no excuse. His duty in office required him to be better than that.

I think South Park did this pretty well when the atheist movement came out-

Our answer to the Great Question is the only logical one. Our Science is great. Let us not forget the great Richard Dawkins who finally freed the world of religion long ago. Dawkins knew that logic and reason were the way of the future. But it wasn't until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn't enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you.

Re: Lewinsky, what I find interesting about it is how I recently read a biography on JFK and no one gave a crap who he slept with (and there were many women who fit the bill). I think in the long term she really came out short though- Bill Clinton's life clearly moved on from that moment, but she is essentially a pariah for life. Last I heard she lives of her family's money in the UK and tries to stay out of the spotlight because there's literally no one who doesn't know what she did as her name is so distinctive. (Personally if it was me I would've changed my name and dyed my hair or something.)

[Cyborg Girl]

Re: Lewinsky, what I find interesting about it is how I recently read a biography on JFK and no one gave a crap who he slept with (and there were many women who fit the bill). I think in the long term she really came out short though- Bill Clinton's life clearly moved on from that moment, but she is essentially a pariah for life. Last I heard she lives of her family's money in the UK and tries to stay out of the spotlight because there's literally no one who doesn't know what she did as her name is so distinctive. (Personally if it was me I would've changed my name and dyed my hair or something.)

That is horrible, and IMO very indicative of the predominant biases in our culture.

[SciFi Chick]

I watched a documentary on this, and let's just say, Lewinski is definitely the victim.

[Rommie]

What documentary?

[SciFi Chick]

What documentary?

Monica in Black and White

[Sigma_Orionis]

I think South Park did this pretty well when the atheist movement came out-

Our answer to the Great Question is the only logical one. Our Science is great. Let us not forget the great Richard Dawkins who finally freed the world of religion long ago. Dawkins knew that logic and reason were the way of the future. But it wasn't until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn't enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you.

Re: Lewinsky, what I find interesting about it is how I recently read a biography on JFK and no one gave a crap who he slept with (and there were many women who fit the bill). I think in the long term she really came out short though- Bill Clinton's life clearly moved on from that moment, but she is essentially a pariah for life. Last I heard she lives of her family's money in the UK and tries to stay out of the spotlight because there's literally no one who doesn't know what she did as her name is so distinctive. (Personally if it was me I would've changed my name and dyed my hair or something.)

Meh, JFK, always disliked his carefully created public image (I always found the whole "Camelot" thing annoying), and yes, apparently he hit on anyone with a Double X chromosome and nobody ever complained.

According to this Time magazine article, Ms Lewinsky stayed out of the public view since 2006, when she got her Master's degree in Social Psychology. From what I saw on the timeline, she did cash out something out of it: an authorized biography, the aforementioned TV movie, a Reality Show, a comercial for Jenny Craig, and according to that bastion of credibility known as the New York Post (yes virginia I am being very sarcastic) rumors of another book deal.

[Cyborg Girl]

Because it's not over yet:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck ... or-events/

Maybe this sampling is biased, but it looks like the same guys are doing the harassing most of the time. Which might have some disturbing implications about what sort of personalities are leading this movement.

[Rommie]

Well two things there,

1) Most scientists etc who speak at these sorts of things are men because in the older generation at least they dominate science etc.

2) Women in society in general are more likely to be assaulted for various cultural and historical reasons- in sexual assault cases 90% are against women and 10% are against men (by both other men and by women). So it's not terribly surprising.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Interesting to notice that the same four names pop up continuously, three slimeballs and an enabler.

What is appalling is the foot-dragging by the board of directors of the JREF.