Why the hell are we praising the pope about gay people?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Again, though - it isn't so much what the pope has done or hasn't done that bothers me. It's the public's reaction to it.

To me, this looks a lot like the people who said "racism is over forever, now" when Barack Obama was elected. It's disingenuous. Call it what it is, don't overstate things. The church has taken a baby step. Good on the pope for that. But don't pretend that everything has been solved when nothing has.

[brite]

That's not what he said... what he said what it was not up to him to judge. That it was not up to the Church to judge.

The implication being that it is up to god to judge. And god says queers go to the hot place. Saying "it's not for us to judge" is a way to dodge responsibility; it's a way to look progressive without actually being progressive.

"Oh, if it were up to me, I'd be fine with gay people. But it's not. God says so. Too bad. Looks like they get to burn."

Rubbish.

No.. That's not what God says... Not in the New Testament, which is what the Christians are supposed to be going by. Jesus says nothing about gays, abortion, birth control or who can marry whom. He says that we should love one another, turn the other cheek, and preached a message of tolerance. Which is pretty much what Francis is doing.

He is also trying to live a Christian life and lead by example, by living a far more humble life, filled with service to his fellow man.

Yes, and good for him. That's commendable. But it doesn't justify the head-over-heels praise that he's getting. Which, as I said, is my complaint.

Lots of people live the same way. People aren't dropping to the ground to kiss their feet.

This is not something that most cardinals are accustomed to, let alone popes. Francis is an anomaly to the papacy. He is unique, not something that has been seen, probably since St Peter! He isn't totally hung up on the Pauline scripture, he isn't preaching hate, he IS preaching the New Testament, but the part of the New Testament that talks about love, and loving your fellow man, and how you are supposed to care for each other, help each other and love one another.

Except gays and atheists go to hell, and condoms are worse than AIDS. No substantive change on any of those. No substantive change on women. No substantive change on sexual abuse.

Colour me unimpressed. [/quote]see above

I'm not a Catholic (not any more, at any rate...), I'm not even Christian... But I think that this guy rocks. He's what I think that the Christian message SHOULD be. What Fisher shows me it could be. What my mother showed me it could be.

Again, he talks a good game, sure. But he still hasn't actually done anything. Nothing to justify the "Catholicism has done a 180 and is now the biggest force for good in the universe" attitude that I'm seeing, at any rate.[/quote]
This Pope comes across as an "everyman". The kind of man that doesn't judge, because he too, knows what it's like to live life. man sneaks out of the Vatican to minister to the poor, traded in the Vatican limo for an 80s Renault, doesn't live in the Papal apartments, and probably would be happier if he could have a small apartment somewhere in Rome than the Vatican... I'm thinking that you are overthinking this... Or perhaps it's the fact that even the non-Christians think he's pretty nifty, though I wouldn't say that we are throwing ourselves at him. I will say that for once there isn't a call for the Vatican to apologize for the Inquisition...

No one expects you to be impressed. No one expects anyone to be impressed. But if you are.. it's cool. I am. I'm tired of the Christians who tell me how "Godly" they are, and then tell me I'm going to hell, because I don't follow their brand of Christianity (I have family that does that on a regular basis). Catholics come in all flavors. There are the ones that go to Mass only at Christmas and Easter, ones that go to Mass only on Sundays and ones that go to Mass everyday. There are those that think that Vatican II was too radical. But it boils down to that there is no church in the world that has all the answers. And the Catholic Church is no different... it's just bigger than most.

[cid]

Someone forwarded this to me...xxxxxxxxxxtremely interesting...

[FZR1KG]

Fair enough.

It is a step in the right direction but not the final result.

Though let me just add this little story in for what it's worth.
When we got to the USA we got involved in the local theatre.
They produced a play which we watched and it was a fun play but the performances of some of the cast weren't the best.
They got a standing ovation.

Now, the MIL and the wife have done far higher level productions so were taken aback by the standing ovation because it didn't deserve it.
I pointed out that in a community theatre you will never find a production that will be worthy so you have to give your applause not to the final level as say compared to a professional production but rather to an amateur organisation doing something which they have little experience in. Otherwise we'd all sit there and never even applause.

This is the same thing.
You are comparing their effort to what a professional group of lawyers and activists would come up with. If the response was like yours throughout the world, the result would be very little progress made beyond what they have just done.
Basically it may not be a big step in absolute terms but its a huge one in relative terms.

I do see your point. I just believe this is a huge step for this organisation to do and wish to encourage it.

Hope that makes sense.

[FZR1KG]

Someone forwarded this to me...xxxxxxxxxxtremely interesting...

Of course Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.
How the hell could he?
The man didn't exist. A man that didn't exist can't say shit.

[The Supreme Canuck]

No.. That's not what God says... Not in the New Testament, which is what the Christians are supposed to be going by. Jesus says nothing about gays, abortion, birth control or who can marry whom. He says that we should love one another, turn the other cheek, and preached a message of tolerance. Which is pretty much what Francis is doing.

But the Catholic Church says that's what god says. And it bases its doctrines and actions upon that understanding of what god says. That's the point: they get to say they're progressive while remaining regressive. It's like the Mormon church's stance toward blacks prior to 1978. It took a direct revelation from god for the Mormons to allow black people to fully participate in their church. Before then, it was "Oh, we'd love to... but god says no."

The Mormons were being disingenuous then by blaming god for their own bigotry, and the Catholics are being disingenuous now by doing the same thing.

This Pope comes across as an "everyman". The kind of man that doesn't judge, because he too, knows what it's like to live life.

But it is for his god to judge, so far as he's concerned. And, as he understands it, his god doesn't much like a whole bunch of people. Too bad for them.

man sneaks out of the Vatican to minister to the poor, traded in the Vatican limo for an 80s Renault, doesn't live in the Papal apartments, and probably would be happier if he could have a small apartment somewhere in Rome than the Vatican...

All lovely. But I want to know how he's actually addressing the real problems with the church. AIDS, gays, women, child abuse, atheists... none of that has changed. At all. Those are the things that matter.

I'm thinking that you are overthinking this... Or perhaps it's the fact that even the non-Christians think he's pretty nifty, though I wouldn't say that we are throwing ourselves at him. I will say that for once there isn't a call for the Vatican to apologize for the Inquisition...

It isn't that people think he's nifty. It's that they think his words have fixed everything that the church has broken. They haven't.

No one expects you to be impressed. No one expects anyone to be impressed. But if you are.. it's cool. I am. I'm tired of the Christians who tell me how "Godly" they are, and then tell me I'm going to hell, because I don't follow their brand of Christianity (I have family that does that on a regular basis). Catholics come in all flavors. There are the ones that go to Mass only at Christmas and Easter, ones that go to Mass only on Sundays and ones that go to Mass everyday. There are those that think that Vatican II was too radical. But it boils down to that there is no church in the world that has all the answers. And the Catholic Church is no different... it's just bigger than most.

Well, according to church doctrine, I am going to hell. No matter how moral I am. No matter how good a person the pope thinks I am. I apparently deserve to be tortured for eternity.

Gee. Maybe that's part of the reason I find this whole thing laughable.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I do see your point. I just believe this is a huge step for this organisation to do and wish to encourage it.

Hope that makes sense.

Oh, I understand. I just think the praise pendulum has swung too far, here. By all means say "Good job, Pope!" But don't say "Good job, Pope! You've fixed everything."

Call a spade a spade. Praise the guy, sure, but call this what it is: a baby step. And then press for substantive changes. What's bothering me is that the world is praising him as if he'd already carried out those big changes. He hasn't. Why applaud him for something he hasn't done? It's undeserved. And it removes pressure for him to do better.

[FZR1KG]

Well, according to church doctrine, I am going to hell. No matter how moral I am. No matter how good a person the pope thinks I am. I apparently deserve to be tortured for eternity.

Hey, I'll bring beer and scotch.
Brite can bring snacks.
Fisher can bring...I have no freaking idea, probably his wit and sense of humour.
Everyone's coming to the party bring what you can.

[cid]

Well, according to church doctrine, I am going to hell. No matter how moral I am. No matter how good a person the pope thinks I am. I apparently deserve to be tortured for eternity.

Hey, I'll bring beer and scotch.
Brite can bring snacks.
Fisher can bring...I have no freaking idea, probably his wit and sense of humour.
Everyone's coming to the party bring what you can.

I'm bringin' the root beer. Dad's or Hires?

[FZR1KG]

I love root beer.
So hard to find a good one though.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Well, according to church doctrine, I am going to hell. No matter how moral I am. No matter how good a person the pope thinks I am. I apparently deserve to be tortured for eternity.

According to Dante's Inferno (which as far as I am concerned is about as valid as the Church's doctrine ) yer going to the first circle of hell aka Limbo, no torture for you sonny, for your lack of faith you'll end up in a deficient version of heaven

If you ask Michelle Bachmann yer going to bad parts of hell, but since IMHO she ALSO IS, so we can all do lunch there and we can point and laugh

Edited for Clarity

[FZR1KG]

Bachmann is going to the great hotdog factory in the sky.
Yes, that picture is seared into my mind.
What has been seen, cannot be unseen.

[SciFiFisher]

Well, according to church doctrine, I am going to hell. No matter how moral I am. No matter how good a person the pope thinks I am. I apparently deserve to be tortured for eternity.

Hey, I'll bring beer and scotch.
Brite can bring snacks.
Fisher can bring...I have no freaking idea, probably his wit and sense of humour.
Everyone's coming to the party bring what you can.

I'm bringin' the root beer. Dad's or Hires?

A & W!!!!

[SciFiFisher]

Well, according to church doctrine, I am going to hell. No matter how moral I am. No matter how good a person the pope thinks I am. I apparently deserve to be tortured for eternity.

Hey, I'll bring beer and scotch.
Brite can bring snacks.
Fisher can bring...I have no freaking idea, probably his wit and sense of humour.
Everyone's coming to the party bring what you can.

Along with the wit and sense of humor I can bring Jack Daniels and home made Chex mix. I hate the commercial stuff. They never fix it right.

[SciFi Chick]

TSC - I think you're wrong.

Every day something new comes about this pope that tells me things are changing and relatively quickly.

[Sigma_Orionis]

A THIRD VATICAN COUNCIL? and to add insult to injury with the premise of "Finally Finishing the Work of the Second Vatican Council", By the standards of the Catholic Church this guy is a revolutionary extremist.

And apparently catholic conservatives are not happy

A couple of prominent Catholic cardinals have responded to Pope Francis’ declarations by leaving the church. Cardinal Arinze of Nigeria asked, “what do we stand for if we declare that truth is relative? On the contrary, truth exists independently of our personal feelings. All of this talk of love and tolerance is hollow if we have no identity of our own, if we stand for nothing. I charge that Francis has become a heretic, and that he is not a valid Pope. Indeed, Francis is no longer even a Catholic. The seat of Saint Peter is vacant. I am now a Sedevacantist. I should have become one long ago. The Vatican has embraced ecumenism in the past, but worse than that, it has now embraced moral relativism on abortion and homosexuality. At the same time it is embracing moral absolutism in favour of illegal immigration and cultural genocide against Europe.”

A CARDINAL calling a POPE a HERETIC? dude, this hasn't happened since probably the middle ages.

This just adds to my gut feeling that Benedict was "politely persuaded" to retire because a pragmatic faction of the Church gained supremacy over the conservatives.

ETA:
NEVER MIND, the diversity chronicle article is a hoax and a very well written one I must say.

[Cyborg Girl]

Damn it!

[FZR1KG]

The article might be a hoax but it's also a lot closer to the truth than many want to admit.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Well, honestly, what set my bullshit detector off was the mention of a Third Vatican Council. Thinking about it, I found it odd that the article mentioned that it had just happened all of a sudden. IF there's ever another of those, it would be on the news well in advance. Particularly, because one of the main reasons liberal catholics are pissed off at the church was that it notoriously dragged its feet regarding the agreements they made in the second council.

[SciFi Chick]

Damn. My apologies TSC. Wishful thinking on my part I suppose.

[SciFi Chick]

They don't exactly make it obvious that they are pushing satire.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Yeah, my hoax detector went off right away for the same reason as Sigma's. And, I hate to say it, but the fact that someone wrote this hoax and people believed it is kind of the attitude that I'm condemning, here.

[FZR1KG]

Yeah, my hoax detector went off right away for the same reason as Sigma's. And, I hate to say it, but the fact that someone wrote this hoax and people believed it is kind of the attitude that I'm condemning, here.

Ever watched FOX news?

Speaking of which, add that to my list of gripes and trying to change things. A news service shouldn't have the right to call itself a News service if it is biased or presenting opinions rather than facts. Call it a something else instead. It really should be illegal. That would make a big difference as many people simply accept if it's news, it's true. That just isn't the case.

At this rate the trustworthiness of reporters is going to go below used car salesmen, if it hasn't already.

[SciFi Chick]

Yeah, my hoax detector went off right away for the same reason as Sigma's. And, I hate to say it, but the fact that someone wrote this hoax and people believed it is kind of the attitude that I'm condemning, here.

Well, excuse me for having hope for the human race. Do continue to feel superior in the face of my idiotic idealism.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I don't feel superior to you in any way, SFC. I'm sure you know that.