FWIS3

Apparently it's getting worse and worse- makes Elevatorgate seem sane.

Of course, I was particularly interested to read how some people clearly never change- link

I'm not sure why all the skeptics are so surprised by this. I've never thought misogyny or predatory sexual behavior is religious in nature. I think it's more about power. Men in powerful positions - a lot of them get drunk on the power and it corrupts them. They start to believe their own hype and then they can't imagine anyone refusing them.

And it might not be something that is just male. We don't have enough women in power yet to know if they would react the same way.

Something definitely needs to be done about this situation, but I'm fascinated by all the shock and horror like the skeptic/atheist community was somehow a Utopia.

Heh Heh Heh, like all factions in a struggle for supremacy, the one you're on is the one that is "Holier" than the others......

SFC

The reason people are surprised is because the atheist meme has been promoted has having the higher moral ground over religion. The meme frequently touts atheists as more honest, ethical, and better citizens than those hypocritical, double standard, and irrational religious foks who use religion as a crutch so they can avoid logical thinking.

We are frequently told that atheists do not need religion or other external incentives to be good people. So, imagine the shock and dismay among the faithful when they discover that the paragons of atheism and rational thought are just as sick and evil as any priest buggering an alter boy. And then having mother church cover it up.

SciFiFisher wrote:SFC

The reason people are surprised is because the atheist meme has been promoted has having the higher moral ground over religion. The meme frequently touts atheists as more honest, ethical, and better citizens than those hypocritical, double standard, and irrational religious foks who use religion as a crutch so they can avoid logical thinking.

We are frequently told that atheists do not need religion or other external incentives to be good people. So, imagine the shock and dismay among the faithful when they discover that the paragons of atheism and rational thought are just as sick and evil as any priest buggering an alter boy. And then having mother church cover it up.

I was going to say something snarky, but since your post covered it all it's unnecessary now, FUDDY DUDDY!

I agree and think it's somewhat because atheist people thought atheists were going to be a "model minority" in religious circles and just be awesome cause they could be. Of course, jerks are jerks and the fact that people thought they didn't need regulating threw a wrench in these plans.

I think you're right about the men in power thing btw, I mean it's not like athletes and rock stars never have sexual indiscretions. I will note though that after many discussions with others and thinking back on it the person I have experience with in the article was a textbook case of someone with narcissistic personality disorder- I can literally check off everything listed as an indicator for it (and somehow for me it was nice to see that there was a definition for why he was so fucked up and acted the way he did). I wonder if this is somewhat a more usual thing for people who rise to the top in such fields- of course you have to be able to like your message and sell yourself, and being a jerk is somehow more tolerated. I don't know.

People like that exist everywhere in life.

They need to be dragged out and punished for their behaviour.
Its sick.
Personally like public floggings for such things.
No it doesn't help anything, but makes me feel better.

SciFiFisher wrote:SFC

The reason people are surprised is because the atheist meme has been promoted has having the higher moral ground over religion. The meme frequently touts atheists as more honest, ethical, and better citizens than those hypocritical, double standard, and irrational religious foks who use religion as a crutch so they can avoid logical thinking.

We are frequently told that atheists do not need religion or other external incentives to be good people. So, imagine the shock and dismay among the faithful when they discover that the paragons of atheism and rational thought are just as sick and evil as any priest buggering an alter boy. And then having mother church cover it up.

Well, I actually wonder if there is no difference in the relative levels of harassment in atheist and religious communities, and that the atheist community is just more willing to expose the harassment as actually happening. That is, there is a higher level of reporting in the atheist community rather than a higher level of harassment. Given how repressed a lot of religious communities are about sex, and given the number of horrendous sex scandals actively covered up by religious groups (I'm looking at you, Catholic Church...), I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if that were the case.

Hopefully that is the case, it's still to early to know.

Well, the other explanation is that, for some reason, atheists are more prone to harassing people than theists. Which doesn't really pass Occam's Razor. It makes more sense that a community which (at least on the surface) encourages reporting of harassment will have a higher rate of reporting than a community that encourages silence on the matter.

Rommie wrote:Apparently it's getting worse and worse- makes Elevatorgate seem sane.

Of course, I was particularly interested to read how some people clearly never change- link

From the link

In case you’ve been on Mars, in a cave, with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears: The floodgates have started to burst. Reports about sexual harassment and abuse in the atheist and skeptical community are starting to come out… and prominent names are being named.

But I like it on Mars and my cave is lovely and I don't like people making fun of my meditative position. In other words, I've heard absolutely nothing about this. I assume Elevatorgate is the theft of an elevator by the Committe to Re-Elect the President.

(have I ever mentioned how much I despise this nonsense of sticking "gate" on the end of a word or name to mean scandal - Watergate was not a scandal about H2O )

FZR1KG wrote:People like that exist everywhere in life.

Yes. I don't know why anyone is surprised by that, but then most people are like an alien species to me. There are nice whatevers and there are asshole whatevers, whatever the whatever division of humanity we are talking about.

I also suspect that the people or groups who think they are "above that sort of thing" (whatever the thing is) are the ones most likely to get in trouble because of that thing.

What fools.

About the blog's author:

Greta Christina has been writing professionally since 1989, on topics including atheism, sexuality and sex-positivity, LGBT issues, politics, culture, and whatever crosses her mind.

Another fine example of why I almost completely avoid the blogsphere. My qualification for writing a blog is that I am a professional blogger.

Wow. There goes any respect I ever had for Michael Shermer. It's a distant hope, but I hope he ends up behind bars for this.

And good on PZ Meyers for practicing what he preaches.

Seriously... Holy fuck.

Edit: check the comment thread on Pharyngula. Bill Nye too! Fuck... What the fuck is wrong with so many men?

Gullible Jones wrote:What the fuck is wrong with so many men?

testosterone poisoning is not a pretty sight.

code monkey wrote:

Gullible Jones wrote:What the fuck is wrong with so many men?

testosterone poisoning is not a pretty sight.

It behaves badly too.

Gullible Jones wrote:Wow. There goes any respect I ever had for Michael Shermer. It's a distant hope, but I hope he ends up behind bars for this.

And good on PZ Meyers for practicing what he preaches.

Seriously... Holy fuck.

Edit: check the comment thread on Pharyngula. Bill Nye too! Fuck... What the fuck is wrong with so many men?

Can you find a link for the Bill Nye thing GJ? Because I just looked and couldn't find it so perhaps the comment was deleted (after all, anyone can say anything in an Internet comment, so perhaps it wasn't sincere).

swift, Elevatorgate was the thing a few years ago where a woman was asked by a guy in an elevator at an atheist conference if she wanted to go to his room, she declined, later said offhand "btw guys don't do that," and Richard Dawkins publicly commented to call her stupid for complaining. I remember we had a big thread about it on the last FWIS so that's why I just said it like that.

Rommie wrote:swift, Elevatorgate was the thing a few years ago where a woman was asked by a guy in an elevator at an atheist conference if she wanted to go to his room, she declined, later said offhand "btw guys don't do that," and Richard Dawkins publicly commented to call her stupid for complaining. I remember we had a big thread about it on the last FWIS so that's why I just said it like that.

It was more involved than that.
Making a comment to say "don't do that" wasn't the issue.
Many peoples reaction was that she was almost raped, was in extreme danger, is where it turned to shit.

Then a vocal majority of women and men started going on about the obvious problems in society and how women are repressed citing this as an example.
Dawkins made a sarcastic comment comparing the suffering of this case vs women in many Muslim countries, basically trying to get perspective into the situation.
Needless to say that it backfired on Dawkins.

Then there was the rally cry to boycott works by Dawkins because he "was" sexist.

I would gently add that there are woman who take advantage of the "poor me" (Monica Lewinski anyone?). There is no question that sexism exists but it's not wholly onesided

IIRC the ElevatorGate thing was very much subject to interpretation. Like I said then, the poor idiot approached the woman in question (apparently invited her for a cup of coffee in his room), the woman definitely didn't like his approach and blew him off. The woman herself said that the man was polite, and DID TAKE "NO" for answer. She did feel creeped out (which IIRC I said then that it WAS her prerrogative). What made it stupid was the whole fallout thing because it reached ridiculous levels. Again, IIRC, NOBODY actually mentioned the words "Sexual Harassment" then, which is pretty different from now.

The person Rommie mentions sounds like a real asshole, don't know if this person reaches the level of narcisism but sure sounds full of himself (Take it away Z! ).

Sigma_Orionis wrote:

SciFiFisher wrote:SFC

The reason people are surprised is because the atheist meme has been promoted has having the higher moral ground over religion. The meme frequently touts atheists as more honest, ethical, and better citizens than those hypocritical, double standard, and irrational religious foks who use religion as a crutch so they can avoid logical thinking.

We are frequently told that atheists do not need religion or other external incentives to be good people. So, imagine the shock and dismay among the faithful when they discover that the paragons of atheism and rational thought are just as sick and evil as any priest buggering an alter boy. And then having mother church cover it up.

I was going to say something snarky, but since your post covered it all it's unnecessary now, FUDDY DUDDY!

I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I Win!

Sigma_Orionis wrote:IIRC the ElevatorGate thing was very much subject to interpretation. Like I said then, the poor idiot approached the woman in question (apparently invited her for a cup of coffee in his room), the woman definitely didn't like his approach and blew him off. The woman herself said that the man was polite, and DID TAKE "NO" for answer. She did feel creeped out (which IIRC I said then that it WAS her prerrogative). What made it stupid was the whole fallout thing because it reached ridiculous levels. Again, IIRC, NOBODY actually mentioned the words "Sexual Harassment" then, which is pretty different from now.

The person Rommie mentions sounds like a real asshole, don't know if this person reaches the level of narcisism but sure sounds full of himself (Take it away Z! ).

No, the people involved never said it was sexual harassment- I do recall however the Bad Astronomer saying on his blog that this guy was "borderline sexually harassing" the woman. Which to me was a bit WTF.

Rommie wrote:No, the people involved never said it was sexual harassment- I do recall however the Bad Astronomer saying on his blog that this guy was "borderline sexually harassing" the woman. Which to me was a bit WTF.

Yeah, the whole over-reacting on that thing is what gives weight to TSC's argument. What bugs me is how quickly the "atheist movement" became a little too well organized for my taste. Reading through some of the blogs, the words "the good of the movement" sounded to me too much like a crusade. And the moment that becomes the norm, IMHO the "atheist movement" becomes self-defeating.

SciFiFisher wrote:I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I beat Sigma to the Snark! I Win!

yer despicable.......

Sigma_Orionis wrote:
Yeah, the whole over-reacting on that thing is what gives weight to TSC's argument. What bugs me is how quickly the "atheist movement" became a little too well organized for my taste. Reading through some of the blogs, the words "the good of the movement" sounded to me too much like a crusade. And the moment that becomes the norm, IMHO the "atheist movement" becomes self-defeating.

I agree. I don't believe in any god, but I don't like calling myself an atheist. I guess I shouldn't care what other people think of me, but I don't want others to assume I have all of the same views as those in the atheist movement.

pumpkinpi wrote:I agree. I don't believe in any god, but I don't like calling myself an atheist. I guess I shouldn't care what other people think of me, but I don't want others to assume I have all of the same views as those in the atheist movement.

Well, that's the thing, some pretty vocal members of the "atheist movement" (PZ Myers for example) seem to enjoy pissing off people who have faith but don't let faith think for them. If they're going to paint all people of faith with the same brush, people of faith will do the same.

And then of course we have the "tolerance fanatics".

Hey Swift!, are there any free caves on Mars? My mysanthropy has been acting up lately.,....

Sigma_Orionis wrote:Hey Swift!, are there any free caves on Mars? My mysanthropy has been acting up lately.,....

TANSTAAFC

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Cave.

Is that so? I hereby declare a FATWA on all Martians!