pumpkinpi wrote:People should try osteopaths (actual board licensed doctors) instead. I had a killer bad back for years, and it got so much better after a series of manipulation sessions.
SciFiFisher wrote:pumpkinpi wrote:People should try osteopaths (actual board licensed doctors) instead. I had a killer bad back for years, and it got so much better after a series of manipulation sessions.
It's getting harder and harder to find an actual D.O. who does manipulation as part of their practice. Insurance doesn't cover manipulation most of the time.
squ1d wrote:I had an unpleasant argument about this subject with someone in real life the other day.
SFC, with a shitty TEE score, you can go to a shitty university in WA, and do a shitty UNDERGRADUATE degree that gives you the protected title of Dr in Chiropractic. It is a total joke that the entire legitimate medical establishment in this country bemoans.
In no actual real scientific discipline can you get the title of "Dr" that way.
I'd call that a higher level of recognition rather than a higher level of training. If its worse in the USA then I pity your spines and sensibility.
squ1d wrote:The whole discipline is built on pseudoscience. It is quackery.
squ1d wrote:The whole discipline is built on pseudoscience. It is quackery.
SciFiFisher wrote:squ1d wrote:The whole discipline is built on pseudoscience. It is quackery.
You just described half the professions in the world.
squ1d wrote:SciFiFisher wrote:squ1d wrote:The whole discipline is built on pseudoscience. It is quackery.
You just described half the professions in the world.
That's complete bollocks.
Daniel David Palmer invented Chiropractic, he was a total quack and it is built on mystical ideas that are scientifically discredited.
Here are some professions straight off the top of my head: plumber, builder, electrician, engineer, doctor, manager, cleaner, waiter, pilot, taxi driver, accountant, carpenter.
None of these are based on pseudoscience.
I think you'll find the vast majority of all professions are not built on pseudoscience, and the number is close to zero when you exclude professions associated with religion and "alternative medicine" .
Courses include biochemistry, anatomy, embryology, histology, immunology and microbiology, neuroscience, pathology and physiology. These courses provide a firm foundation for developing the clinical skills and knowledge needed to progress through the chiropractic school curriculum.
Diagnostic and clinical sciences
A full six trimesters are devoted to the skills of making a diagnosis. Courses include:
Clinical skills which prepare students to obtain a medical history and perform a physical exam
Clinical pathology
The diagnosis and management of a variety of health and chiropractic problems
Lectures, small groups, labs, self-directed study and online learning
Health promotion and wellness
These courses introduce you to the unique needs of pregnant patients, infants and children, women and the elderly. Additional courses cover how chiropractic plays an important role in public health, health promotion and wellness.
Diagnostic imaging
This sequence covers the role of imaging technology in diagnostic decision-making. You’ll begin with courses covering normal radiographic anatomy. Later courses include interpretation of advanced imaging and the diagnosis of chiropractic and medical pathologies.
Sigma_Orionis wrote:I think there's a difference on the definition of what Chiropractic is.
Up till 10 minutes ago I had the impression that Chiropractic was limited to Spinal Manipulation to mitigate Back Pain , which is about the only part of what Chiropractic promotes to be of any purported value according to what I've just read read
The thing that makes me weary of anything to do with Chiropractic, is that way too many Chiropractors (particularly in the early days) propose that they can cure virtually ANYTHING with their practice, which is of course pure unadulterated bullshit. Apparently Chiropractors consider Vaccination harmful (which is a telltale sign right there isn't it?)
THAT is what makes me weary of them. Because if you remove all the unscientific bullshit, all that remains is that their stuff can help for back pain.
SciFiFisher wrote:Unfortunately, there are people with bad opinions in every profession. See my reply about the "science of medicine".
SciFiFisher wrote:Consider this. Doctors of osteopathy manipulate people. It is commonly accepted as a safe and effective practice. Doctors of Chiropractic perform essentially the same function. Yet, the AMA decries them as quacks. The NIH accepts them as a reasonably safe medical alternative. The NIH uses scientific evidence and research to make it's decisions. Yet, many people reject the findings of the NIH.
The fact that Palmer had ideas that have been proven to be bunk does not discredit what the modern chiropractor does today. Look at a typical Chiropractic CurriculumCourses include biochemistry, anatomy, embryology, histology, immunology and microbiology, neuroscience, pathology and physiology. These courses provide a firm foundation for developing the clinical skills and knowledge needed to progress through the chiropractic school curriculum.Diagnostic and clinical sciences
A full six trimesters are devoted to the skills of making a diagnosis. Courses include:
Clinical skills which prepare students to obtain a medical history and perform a physical exam
Clinical pathology
The diagnosis and management of a variety of health and chiropractic problems
Lectures, small groups, labs, self-directed study and online learning
Health promotion and wellness
These courses introduce you to the unique needs of pregnant patients, infants and children, women and the elderly. Additional courses cover how chiropractic plays an important role in public health, health promotion and wellness.
Diagnostic imaging
This sequence covers the role of imaging technology in diagnostic decision-making. You’ll begin with courses covering normal radiographic anatomy. Later courses include interpretation of advanced imaging and the diagnosis of chiropractic and medical pathologies.
Sigma_Orionis wrote:[From your quote, and the info I got here, looks like Chiropractic is trying to clean up its act. You mention that AMA thinks they're still quacks and NIH thinks that under all the historical bullshit Chiropractic surrounded itself with, some parts of that practice has at least some value, I ASSUME that: IF so they must cut loose ALL the bullshit they've been pushing for years, and it will take quite a while. MY question is: ASSUMING that they do, I'd presume that EVENTUALLY, whatever parts of Chiropractic that actually work would end up being absorbed by Osteopathy wouldn't it? I suspect that actual Osteopaths won't be too happy with it, considering how much unscientific crap Chiropractic still carries around its neck. And I also presume Chiropractors won't be too happy either, because of course they'd be out of business by then.
From what you said earlier, Osteopaths these days tend to shy away from Spinal Manipulation because it's not covered by Medical Insurance Plans. The first link I posted, it mentions that APPARENTLY, at least some Chiropractors seek to keep Spinal Manipulation for themselves. So, if you ask me, Chiropractic has quite an uphill battle to become an accepted medical practice.
I get that all professions have their hacks. HOWEVER: MOST of Chiropractic is bullshit, so I suspect that they have more hacks than those usually found in other professions.
Sigma_Orionis wrote:From your quote, and the info I got here, looks like Chiropractic is trying to clean up its act. You mention that AMA thinks they're still quacks and NIH thinks that under all the historical bullshit Chiropractic surrounded itself with, some parts of that practice has at least some value, I ASSUME that: IF so they must cut loose ALL the bullshit they've been pushing for years, and it will take quite a while. MY question is: ASSUMING that they do, I'd presume that EVENTUALLY, whatever parts of Chiropractic that actually work would end up being absorbed by Osteopathy wouldn't it? I suspect that actual Osteopaths won't be too happy with it, considering how much unscientific crap Chiropractic still carries around its neck. And I also presume Chiropractors won't be too happy either, because of course they'd be out of business by then.
From what you said earlier, Osteopaths these days tend to shy away from Spinal Manipulation because it's not covered by Medical Insurance Plans. The first link I posted, it mentions that APPARENTLY, at least some Chiropractors seek to keep Spinal Manipulation for themselves. So, if you ask me, Chiropractic has quite an uphill battle to become an accepted medical practice.
I get that all professions have their hacks. HOWEVER: MOST of Chiropractic is bullshit, so I suspect that they have more hacks than those usually found in other professions.
SciFiFisher wrote:I am not sure at what point a medical practice/profession becomes 100% accepted. What I do know is that many medical insurance plans cover chiropractic treatment. Specifically for spinal and skeletal manipulation. They will also allow acupuncture as part of the treatment plan.
SciFiFisher wrote:The U.S. military and the Veteran's Healthcare administration also cover both chiropractic and acupuncture. Usually the chiropractor is also a practitioner of acupuncture.
SciFiFisher wrote:I have talked to a number of osteopaths who tell me their curriculum barely covered skeletal manipulation. IMO the Osteopaths have all but given up that fight due to the low or no re-imbursement for spinal/skeletal manipulation.
While no single profession "owns" spinal manipulation (SM), and there is little consensus as to which profession should administer SM, chiropractors have expressed concern that orthodox medical physicians and physical therapists could "steal" SM procedures from chiropractors. Chiropractors regularly introduce bills into state legislatures to further prohibit non-chiropractors from performing SM, and they are opposed by physical therapist organizations.[98] Two U.S. states (Washington and Arkansas) prohibit physical therapists from performing SM,[99] some states allow them to do it only if they have completed advanced training in SM. In the most restrictive states, SM is limited to chiropractors and medical physicians.
A focus on evidence-based SM research has also raised concerns that the resulting tighter practice guidelines could limit the scope of chiropractic practice to treating backs and necks
Yes, there are chiropractors who make wild claims for what they can do. But, I don't think those are the ones who are representative of where the profession wants to be.
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