You are being watched

[FZR1KG]

I miss the days when the decent person would stand and fight for what they believe in no matter what.
Now its a case of claiming to the right thing, not sure it it is or isn't and unwilling to take the consequences either way.

The freedom fighter of the 2000's is a coward unwilling to accept responsibility yet while condemning the said Government he's fighting for the lack of it.

Wankers.

[SciFiFisher]

If he really believed he was a whistleblower who did the right thing he would be eager to return and exonerate himself.

I think that is completely ridiculous.

a) He is undoubtedly scared shitless, as anyone of his age and (lack of) experience would be in this situation. Hell, make that anyone, period. You don't piss off a major government and get away with it.

b) You know damn well he has no chance of exonerating himself, and could be subject to indefinite imprisonment and torture without a trial. You're welcome to think that he ought to make himself a martyr; I think that's daft.

He wasn't too scared to do something incredibly stupid in his search for being a hero. And if you really think that we would bother to indefinitely imprison and torture him you are misunderstanding what the rendition program is/was about. Whether it was right or not rendition and the indefinite detainment of unlawful combatants and those who aided them was a program with two primary purposes:
1. quickly gain intelligence information that was relevant and timely to prevent attacks that were being planned in the short term future.
2. Keep terrorists locked up where they couldn't do any harm.

Snowden has no information that we need that would prevent an attack on American interests. He has not been charged with terrorism or treason. The U.S. plans to very publically try him in court so that everyone can see what happens. If he is convicted he will very publically be sent to prison. I am sorry but I refute your claim that "I know damn well he could be subject to indefinite imprisonment and torture without a trial". I don't know any such thing.

[FZR1KG]

GJ, I'm curious, how would you want the government to handle a guy who releases classified information then escapes to another country?

Remember that when a person releases classified information, what they are really doing is placing themselves above all the people that set the policy.
That includes superior officers, elected politicians and law makers/interpreters. That's the problem here. he put his personal opinion above everyone and everything else. That is a pretty arrogant thing to do and rarely is the right thing.

Let's even say he was right to do so.

Without trial or any form of repercussions for his actions, what you will create is a wave of idiots putting out classified information because they "think" they are in the right and will not pay any price for doing so.

So what do you want the government to do?

[Sigma_Orionis]

He wasn't too scared to do something incredibly stupid in his search for being a hero.

Particularly since the Bradley Manning and Julian ASSange incidents are so recent.

Let's asume for a minute that: yes, the US government is run by power hungry sociopaths that will do everything in their power to control everyone for their own benefit (regardless of whether it's good or bad for the US as a whole), silence disent and avoid embarassment.

He KNEW pretty well he was going to mess with that, he could have simply gone to Ecuador, dropped the bomb just like he did in Hong Kong (which does have an extradition treaty with the US), gone to the Ecuadorian authorities and applied for asylum in Ecuadorian Soil.

Hell, back in the 1950s when the UK had all those Foreign Office members that were on the payroll of the USSR (known as the Cambridge Five) the first three fled to the USSR after they knew that British Counter Espionage was after them.

Sure, they were spies, this guy is supposed to be a "whistleblower". Still, it doesn't take a great insight to notice the similarities. So, if he had used his head (regarding of the rightness or wrongness of his actions) he could have simply done that.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Oh my, the asshole in chief has spoken

Mr Hollande denied France had received a specific asylum request from Mr Snowden.

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, who is on a visit to Moscow, said the same, but added that Mr Snowden had "done something very important for humanity" and "deserved the world's protection".

"Everyone should react and find solidarity with this young man who has denounced and altered the world that they [the US] pretend to control," he told the BBC.

[Sigma_Orionis]

And now gets even sillier

Bolivia leader's jet diverted 'amid Snowden suspicions'

[Swift]

If he really believed he was a whistleblower who did the right thing he would be eager to return and exonerate himself.

I think that is completely ridiculous.

a) He is undoubtedly scared shitless, as anyone of his age and (lack of) experience would be in this situation. Hell, make that anyone, period. You don't piss off a major government and get away with it.

I'm sorry, but then he is an idiot. We're not talking about a 10 year old. He's 30 years old. He had to know what he was planning to do was highly illegal. He is acting like the US is "picking on him". He committed a very serious crime with international consequences. Did he think he was going to be welcomed as a hero.

If he felt he had to do what he did as a matter of conscious, that's fine. But be enough of a grown-up to face the consequences (or plan your get-away better).

b) You know damn well he has no chance of exonerating himself, and could be subject to indefinite imprisonment and torture without a trial. You're welcome to think that he ought to make himself a martyr; I think that's daft.

No, that's daft. He will face no such thing. He will be prosecuted in a Federal court and if convicted he will go to a Federal prison. There are no grounds to hold him without trial.

[Swift]

I miss the days when the decent person would stand and fight for what they believe in no matter what.
Now its a case of claiming to the right thing, not sure it it is or isn't and unwilling to take the consequences either way.

The freedom fighter of the 2000's is a coward unwilling to accept responsibility yet while condemning the said Government he's fighting for the lack of it.

Wankers.

Yes

[Sigma_Orionis]

SURPRISE! the French and Brits do the same thing as you damned imperialist gringo infidels (TM)!

[geonuc]

What a surprise. Next we're going to learn Russia still employs Soviet-era spy tactics.

[SciFiFisher]

I am shocked, shocked that spying is going on!

[FZR1KG]

Latest wikileeks:
The internet was a high level defense initiative to get people to voluntarily air their secrets publically so it could be gathered by the government for analysis.
Apparently it was Al Gore's idea to do that but he couldn't explain the reasons back then as it would have made him look like he was a nasty old bastard.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Man, you just can't make up stuff like this.

You damned imperialist gringo infidels (TM) better cower in fear. You are going to be lectured by the head asses in Bolivia, Venezuela and Argentina and if you don't behave, the US embassy in Bolivia will be shutdown!

Patria, Socialismo o Muerte! Venceremos!

[FZR1KG]

he was politically quantum raped by the USA

[Yosh]

Late to the party. Most folks have hashed this into its constituent sub-atomic particles.

Having done a bit of Intel, I will offer the following...purely in an academic sense.

1. Other than the occasional headline, you won't hear about many successes in stopping terrorism, because the details will be classified.

2. Not sure how we have a national dialogue on where the point of "pain" is on this. It was pointed out that the over-reach is real, in the here and now, while the threat of being involved in a terrorist act is incredibly small. Surely this is skewed someone (statistically speaking) by where one lives. NYC, LA, even Toronto, are more likely targets than bum-fuck North Dakota. Do we delete the existing programs, or least narrow them significantly, because we feel they are too intrusive? If there's another attack, how many of our countrymen/women will rationally say: "Well, that's the price we have to pay."

3. I don't intend this as an argument *for* the Patriot Act, but I note that "pre-Patriot Act," our intelligence procedures were considered inadequate by portions of the vox populi. Especially when the arm-chair generals effectively connected the dots *after* the Twin Towers attack and complained it should have been "obvious." So...for better and worse, the Patriot Act was inflicted upon us. This leads back to point #2.

4. Concern is well founded, the Church Committee in 1975 is an excellent case-in-point.

This isn't helpful...just me thinking out loud.

[Sigma_Orionis]

he was politically quantum raped by the USA

And the US didn't even need a Flux Capacitor charged at 1.21 Jigawatts!

1. Other than the occasional headline, you won't hear about many successes in stopping terrorism, because the details will be classified.

Counterintuitive at first glance, but thinking it over it's unfortunately true, and let's not even talk about the partisan political spin.......

2. Not sure how we have a national dialogue on where the point of "pain" is on this. It was pointed out that the over-reach is real, in the here and now, while the threat of being involved in a terrorist act is incredibly small. Surely this is skewed someone (statistically speaking) by where one lives. NYC, LA, even Toronto, are more likely targets than bum-fuck North Dakota. Do we delete the existing programs, or least narrow them significantly, because we feel they are too intrusive? If there's another attack, how many of our countrymen/women will rationally say: "Well, that's the price we have to pay."

3. I don't intend this as an argument *for* the Patriot Act, but I note that "pre-Patriot Act," our intelligence procedures were considered inadequate by portions of the vox populi. Especially when the arm-chair generals effectively connected the dots *after* the Twin Towers attack and complained it should have been "obvious." So...for better and worse, the Patriot Act was inflicted upon us. This leads back to point #2.

Well THAT is the crux of the matter: Trying to be "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave", while at the same time providing the level of security John Q. Public wants is at the very least...... messy.

4. Concern is well founded, the Church Committee in 1975 is an excellent case-in-point.

If you ask me, the US intelligence Community never managed to put behind the Bad Rep they got after the Church Committee droped that bomb on the US public. (And no, I am NOT saying that it wasn't justified). And in trying to do so all it got for its efforts was being accused of being unprepared for things like 9/11.

To use one of your evil imperialist gringo infidel (TM) expressions: "Everyone is a Quarterback on Monday Morning".

[Cyborg Girl]

Snail mail is also vulnerable yuk yuk

[FZR1KG]

Snail mail is also vulnerable yuk yuk

Makes sense to me.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Oh Brother.....

"As head of state and government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young US citizen Edward Snowden so he can come to the fatherland of Bolivar and Chavez to live away from the imperial North American persecution," President Maduro said.

Shut up you damned donkey, work at fixing the food shortage and stop playing revolutionary theater.

[Swift]

Oh Brother.....

"As head of state and government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young US citizen Edward Snowden so he can come to the fatherland of Bolivar and Chavez to live away from the imperial North American persecution," President Maduro said.

Shut up you damned donkey, work at fixing the food shortage and stop playing revolutionary theater.

You're just annoyed because you think Snowden's going to steal all the good IT jobs.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Damned Right Skippy, since the other half of the country (particularly the private sector) loves gringos I definitly don't need the competition

[Yosh]

Sigma-san: It does seem counter-intuitive (not publicizing successes), until you think about it. Just saying "we stopped a terrorist attack" won't buy much good will by itself. People want details. Often, those details are classified, and revealing them would risk intel sources and/or methods we don't want compromised.

So, you get a double-bind:

brag about what you did and provide details for credibility, but lose the ability to do it again,

...or....

...just say "we stopped it" without details and likely not be believed. Or just say nothing at all.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Yeah, that's more or less what I figured when I said that thinking about it is unfortunately true.

[Sigma_Orionis]

And now our glorious National Radio idiots call Snowed an 'Ex-CIA Agent'.........

The link is in spanish. Apparently Evo Boy needs as much international attention as Nicky Ripe (that would be the literal translation of the name of our ass-in-chief) so he also offered asylum to Snowden.

[SciFi Chick]

Daniel Ellsberg speaks out on Snowden.

Thoughts?