Coronavirus

[lady_*nix]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... es-economy

This fucking idiot is going to get millions of people killed.

[Rommie]

Well, I mean, he probably already has killed people with his actions, I'm sure historians will have a more precise number.

This sounds macabre, but I legit think in one week from today the situation will appear far more dire here so it will be harder for him to lift restrictions. NYC is starting to hit capacity in their hospitals for example.

Btw, my old friends the Dutch have now announced restrictions on groups greater than 3 people, until June 1. That date is a new one to me, but I keep trying to mentally get used to each new one when I hear it.

[lady_*nix]

@Rommie

That's not macabre, it's realistic, and probably about as optimistic as one can reasonably be where this administration is concerned.

[pumpkinpi]

I was going to come here and vent about how I've been so down the past 24 hours, and write down everything I'm worried about.

But instead I just want to say: keep connected to people! That helps so much. Rooster was supposed to lead her Brownie meeting tomorrow night, so I decided we'd try to do it online. I just met with the co-leading Brownie and her mom to plan the meeting. It was so good to talk with other people, and I'm excited to have this to look forward to tomorrow night. It's going to be CRAZY to have a dozen girls online.

I have to say, this really isn't usually me. I'm what I've named a "non-inviter." I just do not invite people over or to go out and do things with me. But right now, it's crucial. Things have been going very well with the four of us at home. But we need contact with other people too. I'm in survival mode. Maybe this will be a positive change for me when we come out of this. I'll want to be more social!

[Rommie]

Yeah, I have three social events lined up today (our weekly group chat, book club, then departmental social committee), then two more chats later this week. We're being more social now with the virus than we are normally! (Ok no not really, because of course when you go to work and such you're interacting all day with people.)

So, my sister and I both got a bit pissed off at my brother last night in a family group chat. Turns out he is in the "let's reopen the economy next week" camp, on the guise that he is really concerned for blue collar workers and that's the only way to help them. (WAT.) Even though my sister is due in mid-May and was flat out "I am scared about what will happen to me and my baby if we do that and the hospital system collapses"- apparently she should call him up and so he can explain to her how business works.

I know everyone is stressed right now and we don't all respond well at all times to it. But I hope my brother takes up my suggestion to apologize- I guess he's entitled to shitty views if he wants, but I draw the line at being callous about health concerns to those who have them.

[SciFiFisher]

It's really weird how many people are on board with "saving the economy" vs "saving people's lives". I realize there are real lives affected and yes some deaths can be attributed to the economic collapse we are going through. But, Congress, Businesses, Governments at all levels, and people with influence, power, and money can all do something about the economic impact. Hell, the government can literally print money and give it away. But, what we CANNOT do is stop someone from getting the disease if we all start mingling with each other just so we can pass money around and save the economy. What we CANNOT do is produce 7.5 million ventilators in one month. Apparently, critical thinking is not part of the skill set for some of these people.

[pumpkinpi]

It's really weird how many people are on board with "saving the economy" vs "saving people's lives". I realize there are real lives affected and yes some deaths can be attributed to the economic collapse we are going through. But, Congress, Businesses, Governments at all levels, and people with influence, power, and money can all do something about the economic impact. Hell, the government can literally print money and give it away. But, what we CANNOT do is stop someone from getting the disease if we all start mingling with each other just so we can pass money around and save the economy. What we CANNOT do is produce 7.5 million ventilators in one month. Apparently, critical thinking is not part of the skill set for some of these people.

Preach it brother!

[lady_*nix]

@Fisher

I mean, rich people have been talking about Malthusian stuff for how many decades now? I think a lot of them never imagined a solution to the climate crisis, resource scarcity, etc. that didn't involve some kind of genocide.

[Rommie]

God, I am just so angry today. This entire thing has so many flaws:

- No one actually knows that if you let people go back to work it will save the economy. It frankly probably wouldn't, because millions would die, and who the hell is going on a cruise or to the movies right now even if the bans were lifted?

- Further, if you truly believe in this false "two trolleys" problem and think it's ok for 1-2% of people to die for a robust economy, where do you draw the line? Because the fatality rate will be much higher if the hospitals are overloaded. In Italy for example, if you are over 60 you will not get a respirator and be on your own. So, would 5% be too much? 10%? Personally I think if you're for it, you should be required to name one or two people in your life who are older or medically unwell who you are ok with dying right now, because everyone will know someone.

- Third, what I honestly find disturbing about this discussion is let's be honest, if the government decides to open things up I will just laugh "fuck no" and stay at home out of everyone's way. I can afford to do that, and have a job that allows me to do that. In fact, the only people I can imagine going back to work are those who can't afford not to. This is a really disturbing classist thing that is really reminiscent to me of justifications from the days of slavery, and while I'm no Marxist this was definitely a thing covered in his book.

- Finally it all implies that we can't just, you know, pay people to stay at home like all the other Western countries are doing right now. We're the wealthiest country in the world, and there is no way out of this without sacrifice unfortunately- a lot of people just don't want to accept it.

[lady_*nix]

@Rommie

Solidarity, and agreed on everything you're saying. I'm afraid we won't have cause to get less angry for quite a while.

[lady_*nix]

We're doing even worse than Italy in terms of spread.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ET5dIaUX0AM ... name=large

If things keep going the way they are, this pandemic is going to gut our country like a fish.

[Rommie]

So, for the USA being diverse as we are I think this page's plots are more useful, broken down by state. Because the situations are just not the same even in hot spots- it's actually a bit relieving to me that places like Washington and California which put in place policies to contain spread much earlier than other states are seeing a slower rate.

NYC though with its population density as high as it is is totally screwed and it's going to get bad. This summary from Cuomo's daily briefing covers the concerns well. Thousands are going to die there. (Also btw, note Louisiana. Apparently it's one of the fastest growing rates in the world, on par with Spain and Italy, because they think it was already spreading during the Mardi Gras parades. Oh yeah and F and I were totally there President's Day weekend and went to the parades- yay.)

[lady_*nix]

Gods, I'm so fucking glad Cuomo came out and said that.

Re: deaths by county. This is why I mentioned it being impossible for individual states to secure their borders. There will definitely be places where it's better and ones where it's worse, but people are going to migrate from the "worse" to the "better" ones to try and get medical treatment, resources, and safety - and they'll bring the pathogen with them.

(No, I'm not saying e.g. Massachusetts needs to close down its borders, that would be both impossible and heartless. I'm saying that the entire country needs to get this right, or the entire country is fucked, regardless of how well individual states implement the isolation measures.)

Also I've seen conversations in a few places edging slowly towards liberals gloating about how the red states are going to get hit worst, and want to reiterate that things don't work that way.

[Swift]

We're doing even worse than Italy in terms of spread.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ET5dIaUX0AM ... name=large

If things keep going the way they are, this pandemic is going to gut our country like a fish.

Could we take it down a notch? You might be right and I'm already pretty stressed out, but if we're just going to post the absolute worst news and predictions I'm going to freak completely. No one has ever accused me of being a Pollyanna (far from it), but I think we need just a smidgen of hope now.

Thank you.

[Swift]

As far as the economy versus health debate, and Trump saying things like the quarantine will be done in 2 weeks...

First, none of us believe anything Trump says, why should we believe it now. He is biggly on Tweeting one thing and claiming he never said it two days later.

Second, the Feds really aren't driving the quarantine and restrictions; at least that's how it seems to me. I don't know about elsewhere, but the State of Ohio and Governor DeWine is driving things here. He's the one that issued the orders about large groups, shutdown schools, and issued the stay-at-home order. Even if Trump announces on April 1 that everything is hunky dory, I have no belief that the states are just going to follow.

[lady_*nix]

Aye, sorry Swift.

[SciFiFisher]

As far as the economy versus health debate, and Trump saying things like the quarantine will be done in 2 weeks...

First, none of us believe anything Trump says, why should we believe it now. He is biggly on Tweeting one thing and claiming he never said it two days later.

Second, the Feds really aren't driving the quarantine and restrictions; at least that's how it seems to me. I don't know about elsewhere, but the State of Ohio and Governor DeWine is driving things here. He's the one that issued the orders about large groups, shutdown schools, and issued the stay-at-home order. Even if Trump announces on April 1 that everything is hunky dory, I have no belief that the states are just going to follow.

Exactly! In the absence of any real leadership from the big orange turd in chief, almost everyone else has stepped up. I won't discuss Alabama or Mississippi where they said "hey, this isn't China. We will be fine". Trump can announce on April 1st that it's OK for everyone to go back to "Business as usual" and I think almost no one is going to listen to him.

[Swift]

Aye, sorry Swift.

No problem. I'm trying to limit myself to three doomsday predictions a day.

[Rommie]

I think for me the big thing about Trump's boast is just how different going into a serious crisis like this with Trump at the helm is bad for morale in so many ways. GWB obviously was not a great president over eight years, but he had a 95% approval rating after 9/11 for good reason, and that was because he was damn reassuring and presidential when we needed it. He was also capable of hiring and keeping pretty competent staff so going forward, it was uncertain times, but you at least felt safe that things were going to get better.

Trump on the other hand exudes none of this, with the quote going down in history of "I take no responsibility." Like, for me the classic one is how the one reporter asked him what he would tell all the Americans who were scared right now, which said reporter later said he intended as a softball question. Any other president in my lifetime would jump at such a moment to preen and say something reassuring, but Trump instead attacks the reporter.

I guess my point is right now feeling like the folks in charge have a chance of helping over hurting us would go a long way. And it's not a partisan thing- I think 2024 has a good chance of seeing the governor of New York up against the governor of Ohio, because both are so proactive in the face of crisis. What a shitty timeline, folks.

As an aside, I'm sure this period will make hypochondriacs of us all. I've woken up twice in the past week with a bit of a headache that probably happened because of too much wine the night before, and in both cases I'm wondering if it's the virus or not. Then the fact that I blow my nose once in the morning seals the deal.

[SciFiFisher]

Some positive things that Corona virus has done:

1. My daily commute is less frustrating
2. L.A. can see the skyline for the first time in decades
3. People are offering to help each other
4. Pollution is down all over the world
5. I am saving money
6. I have a real excuse for avoiding those awkward family get togethers
7. I have more job security than ever (being a nurse does that)
8. It may have slowed down global warming by a little
9. Congress has actually had major bipartisan action in the last week or two
10. Rand Paul has the virus. OK, maybe that's not positive but it sure is ironic as hell.

[SciFiFisher]

As an aside, I'm sure this period will make hypochondriacs of us all. I've woken up twice in the past week with a bit of a headache that probably happened because of too much wine the night before, and in both cases I'm wondering if it's the virus or not. Then the fact that I blow my nose once in the morning seals the deal.

bwahahahahahaha. I woke up feeling stiff and had a headache this morning. Of course, the first thing I thought about was the virus. So far the CDC is just listing fever, cough, and shortness of breath as the major symptoms of it.

[Rommie]

Indeed, but I've been reading too many threads on Reddit where people who have had it list symptoms, and often someone says it started with a headache or a sore throat for a day (so, like a normal cold often does). Which is obviously scientific and I should probably stop doing.

My list of good things with the quarantine so far:

- I am a newlywed, so obviously I have the best quarantine partner ever! It must be so tough for those who live alone right now.

- We are so lucky to be able to be in New Hampshire for it. One of the things I really appreciate up here versus a city is watching how nature changes over weeks, and we sure as hell don't have anything else to do but sit in the trees and watch those little changes.

- I can do work from home (even if I wish I was doing better at it).

- I feel like everyone is really good at arranging Skype chats and such now. This will probably hold as long as the crisis does.

- I feel like my book collection from secondhand sales and little free libraries has been preparing me for this very situation.

And yes, to add to your pollution note, I read somewhere that Germany has already hit its 2020 emissions targets with the virus shutdown. I think that might more indicate they were shitty targets, but there we are.

[geonuc]

I've been keeping a daily log of our body temperatures. I'm also charting the confirmed cases in our county and state. And I'm logging how far I walk every day in the city (I use onthegomap.com to determine distance).

[Rommie]

Yeah, I was chatting with some friends today, and it's funny how everyone's agreed walking is the new quarantine hobby everyone's taking up.

[pumpkinpi]

I had decided before we were on full-on quarantine to institute a nightly after dinner walk. (School wasn't cancelled yet, we weren't sent to work from home.) I'd heard on a parenting podcast about one family that does that every night--no matter what--and has for years. I'd always wanted to try it. This has provided good motivation! I go no matter what, I'm not forcing the kids as of now but hoping they eventually make it a habit with me. An acceptable alternative is an after dinner bike ride now that it's still light enough!