High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

So... what are you reading these days? Anything good??

High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

Postby Cyborg Girl » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:16 am

So I just finished reading this novel called Oath of Fealty by one Elizabeth Moon. IMO it was a bad story, well told. Why bad? Not because of the Mary Sues, though there is at least one. Not because of the cliches or the loose ends, both of which were numerous. Let me quote it:

"This house must be cleansed," Dorrin said. "That is why I'm opening the windows, when I've untrapped them..."
"Windows were trapped?"
"Evil delights in darkness and secrecy," Dorrin said.


And indeed the villains are a dark, secret bunch. They wear hoods and masks, practice obvious black magic, torture and sacrifice innocent victims in their dungeons, the whole lot. They even worship a god called Liart, whose symbol is a circle with horns.

Oh dear. I think you can see the problem here right away.

I would agree that some kinds of evil delight in darkness and secrecy. Other evils rely not so much on secrecy as tacit consent, people turning a blind eye. The very worst kind are practiced in broad daylight, with large numbers of people being complicit, or even approving. Through fear and naivety, ordinary people are made to be tools for bad causes.

Consider slavery in the United States, for instance. That was a vast evil, and people took it for granted, or even considered it divine right. Downstream effects of it continue to this day, and people still take those effects for granted.

Or consider the Holocaust. Many Germans went right along with it, because they were afraid of Hitler and his thugs, or in many cases because they truly supported him. The Nazis talked of bravery, heroism, and whatnot, and they killed tens of millions of people.

Does evil exist? Absolutely, IMO. The problem is it's not always instantly recognizable, with horned gods and blood sacrifice. The really big evils are more subtle than that. They're like an addictive drug; they get people hooked in before they know what hit them. If you want to avoid that, you have to be on the lookout, even in places you don't expect. Like your own country. Or your own life.

Tolkien clearly recognized this, to some extent. The sheer power of the One Ring corrupts everything it touches, given enough time. And it figures into Moon's novel too; characters comment several times on the lure of power over others. And yet... Tolkien has Orcs, who are all bad by birth (assuming they're actually born). And Moon has her stereotypically Satanic villains and her pureheartedly good saints and paladins. While in real history, people have been killed in droves because they were assumed bad by birth; or for bowing before the wrong gods or saints...

I think that, when you get down to it, the usual bit about corruption is just lip service. The core of a lot of fantasy novels still seems like the same old self-righteous stuff. Granted, I don't think escapism is such a terrible thing (otherwise I wouldn't read as much SF as I do!); but I wonder if what I see here is reflective of a society that is also somewhat self-righteous.

Bah. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
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Re: High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

Postby geonuc » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:02 am

Are you saying you think fantasy novels that portray evil as dark and secretive suck because in the real world evil is often right out in the open?
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Re: High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

Postby SciFiFisher » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:30 pm

There are some fantasy writers who treat evil as an ambiguous and often insidious foe in their novels and stories. Have you tried to the Thomas Covenant series? The series winds up being a total of 9 books but it does a very good job of depicting evil in a myriad of forms including openly running society.

There is IMO an inherent belief (or wish) that evil should be easily identifiable and therefore defeat-able. It always shocks and dismays us when we find that evil came to dinner, chatted with us in a civilized guise, and molested the maid in the scullery.

The insidious part occurs when people participate in evil and don't realize it or they see it as being the more acceptable course of action vs others. In the case of living in and being part of a brutal oppressive regime the alternative is to stand up and die for your convictions that something is wrong. I might be willing to do that. But, am I willing to do that knowing that my family and probably a goodly number of my friends and associates will also be rounded up and murdered to be sure that the "infection" is contained?

Science Fiction like most stories can choose to disturb and ask you to think. Or it can act as a form of escape. A place where evil is easy to spot and defeat as long as the hero's are true, companions are loyal, and the forces of good unite to save the day. OK, I admit it. Sometimes I read that kind of fantasy because I want the world to be that easy to understand and I secretly want to be one of the good guys. ;)
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Re: High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

Postby Cyborg Girl » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:59 am

geonuc: ... Not really, no. More that the themes underlying a lot of high fantasy suck, because they reflect a society that doesn't like to look at itself too closely. Or so I'm inclined to think.

Could just be Sturgeon's Corollary coming through again though.

Fisher: that's what I'm getting at. I don't think there's anything wrong with escapism, but too much of it might be indicative of something wrong underneath, is my feeling.

Re Thomas Covenant, my library has some of those, but only the last trilogy at the moment. That universe looks interesting... How independent are the books from each other?
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Re: High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

Postby Sigma_Orionis » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:29 am

SciFiFisher wrote:Science Fiction like most stories can choose to disturb and ask you to think. Or it can act as a form of escape. A place where evil is easy to spot and defeat as long as the hero's are true, companions are loyal, and the forces of good unite to save the day. OK, I admit it. Sometimes I read that kind of fantasy because I want the world to be that easy to understand and I secretly want to be one of the good guys. ;)



I solved that problem long ago, I'm the only good guy, everyone else is bad. :P
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Re: High fantasy tropes, and why they suck

Postby SciFiFisher » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:44 am

Gullible Jones wrote:Fisher: that's what I'm getting at. I don't think there's anything wrong with escapism, but too much of it might be indicative of something wrong underneath, is my feeling.

Re Thomas Covenant, my library has some of those, but only the last trilogy at the moment. That universe looks interesting... How independent are the books from each other?



In general when society is going through a rough patch escapism tends to be more prevalent. It's as if when times are hard we want our distractions to be less connected to reality. I am not 100% sure that the reverse is true. i.e. when times are good the fiction tends to get grittier and more realistic.

As far as the books being independent from each other. I think each trilogy can be read separately without too much pain. Each of them reflects different aspects of what our primary character(s) is going through at the time. IMO there is a certain amount of back story and some history of the universe that Stephen Donaldson creates in the preceding story lines that you will miss out on.

The last part of the series is actually 4 books. The fourth one is due out October 17, 2013. So, you have time to read the three preceding it. :D
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