Why the hell are we praising the pope about gay people?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Seriously. He said "I don't judge gay people... but having gay sex is still a sin that should be condemned. You are acting immorally in the eyes of god."

As far as I'm concerned, that's just more "hate the sin, not the sinner" nonsense. And he's being hailed as some sort of liberal paragon of morality, here. He isn't. He's still saying bigoted things, and directing his church to enforce them. How is this good? How is this praiseworthy? How is this even a change?

It's atrocious. And anyone commending him for it is acting just as atrociously.

[FZR1KG]

Its one step closer to allowing gay priests...to marry the altar boy of their choosing.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Gah! The common opinion seems to be "well, this is better than past popes, so we should laud this one!" Nonsense. Rot. Rubbish. That's like saying you should laud someone because they only beat their kids twice a day rather than five times a day; things that are objectively wrong are still objectively wrong, even if they are technically less wrong than other things! People who do them should be criticized, not praised!

Fuck, I swear... if people are falling for this blatant and hollow PR move from the Vatican, they're even stupider than I thought. And that's a hard thing to pull off.

[Hap]

Have you never trained an animal? You praise and reward small steps towards the desired behavior, until they finally reach it. It takes time and patience. You can't seriously believe that people (in general) or an institution can make a radical change in their viewpoint or behavior overnight (again, speaking generally). That is a nice thought, but it would be rather foolish to think it were possible in the real world. And honestly, we (human kind) are so disparate and fractured in our beliefs and ethics, that finding any kind of consensus on a desired outcome is problematic at best.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I understand that. The problem here is that the world is praising the pope for saying something which is literally exactly the same dogma that the church has promulgated for decades. Literally nothing has changed. They've always said that being gay isn't a sin; engaging in gay sex is the sin. And that's what the pope just said. Rewarding that isn't rewarding good behaviour like when training an animal. It's rewarding no change in behaviour whatsoever.

So what's with the plaudits?

[FZR1KG]

So what's with the plaudits?

The Pope farts, he gets applause.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I think we all know the answer to that.

Public opinion has obviously shifted, he now makes a vague statement that sounds supportive of gays while at the same time not making any moves that might cause trouble in the conservative ranks in the church. And by the looks of it, he pulled off.


So who says Francis boy ain't a politician?

[cid]

... They've always said that being gay isn't a sin; engaging in gay sex is the sin. And that's what the pope just said...

Unmarried sex has always been a sin. Is he referring to gay sex in general, or gay sex outside of marriage? I know this opens a whole new can of worms...

To repeat what I've said a few times before --

People are not up in arms about legitimizing gay marriage. They are afraid that by legitimizing gay marriage, that automatically legitimizes gay sex. That's what gets their pacemakers into the red zone.

[FZR1KG]

Altar boy sex however is perfectly acceptable to the church now for many centuries. Thos progressive catholics.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Charlie: Extra-marital sex of any kind is frowned upon by the church. But gay sex is considered to be "fundamentally disordered" whereas straight sex is not. And it doesn't matter if the gay sex is within marriage or not, since the church does not recognize same-sex marriages as being real.

[Swift]

Have you never trained an animal?

"Who's a good Pope? Who's a good Pope? Who wants a biscuit, who wants a biscuit?"

[cid]

Charlie: Extra-marital sex of any kind is frowned upon by the church. But gay sex is considered to be "fundamentally disordered" whereas straight sex is not. And it doesn't matter if the gay sex is within marriage or not, since the church does not recognize same-sex marriages as being real.

Oh, I agree. But there's a mild expression of frownitude, and there's a teeth-baring face-warping version. Big difference, especially so on the receiving end.
My comment was to get to the heart of the matter...recognition of gay marriage has little to do with marriage, but everything to do with sex, IMNSHO...

[Swift]

Why the hell are we praising the pope about gay people?

Who is this "we" you are talking about.

Seriously, it wasn't me. I really don't care all that much what the pope (any of them) think. Yes, they are a world figure and have more impact than... oh.. me for example. But the bottom line is that I'm not Catholic, and so it has no direct impact on me. If one is Catholic, and you are in disagreement with the pope on some issue... well, you may have a problem.

[Hap]

Have you never trained an animal?

"Who's a good Pope? Who's a good Pope? Who wants a biscuit, who wants a biscuit?"

Glad to provide a moment of amusement.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Francis seems a bit more serious this time

Pope Francis, in the first extensive interview of his six-month-old papacy, said that the Roman Catholic Church had grown “obsessed” with preaching about abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he has chosen not to speak of those issues despite recriminations from some critics.

In remarkably blunt language, Francis sought to set a new tone for the church, saying it should be a “home for all” and not a “small chapel” focused on doctrine, orthodoxy and a limited agenda of moral teachings.

Catholic Conservatives are not amused.

Earlier this month, Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, R.I., told his diocesan newspaper that he was “a little bit disappointed in Pope Francis” because he had not spoken about abortion. “Many people have noticed that,” the bishop was quoted as saying.

The 12,000-word interview ranges widely, and may confirm what many Catholics already suspected: that the chameleon-like Francis bears little resemblance to those on the church’s theological or political right wing. He said some people had assumed he was an “ultraconservative” because of his reputation when he served as the superior of his Jesuit province in Argentina. He pointed out that he was made superior at the “crazy” young age of 36, and that his leadership style was too authoritarian.

“But I have never been a right-winger,” he said. “It was my authoritarian way of making decisions that created problems.”

I'm telling you, Francis-boy is quite the politician.

Edited for spelling

[geonuc]

I'll wait until he admits the bible shouldn't be taken literally before I praise him.

[gethen]

I'll wait until he admits the bible shouldn't be taken literally before I praise him.

If I recall my long ago Catholic school education correctly, the Catholic church has long taught that the Bible is not all to be taken literally. Genesis, for example, is considered allegorical. Evolution is generally accepted as fact. I was taught that the Bible consisted of poetry, allegory, and some actual history. I guess that makes it easier to ignore those parts that don't fit your plan.

[cid]

I'll wait until he admits the bible shouldn't be taken literally before I praise him.

If I recall my long ago Catholic school education correctly, the Catholic church has long taught that the Bible is not all to be taken literally. Genesis, for example, is considered allegorical. Evolution is generally accepted as fact. I was taught that the Bible consisted of poetry, allegory, and some actual history. I guess that makes it easier to ignore those parts that don't fit your plan.

Dammit, gethen, that was supposed to be classified information!!!

[Sigma_Orionis]

.... I guess that makes it easier to ignore those parts that don't fit your plan.

Which explains why the Catholic Church has managed to last over 2000 years........

[Swift]

.... I guess that makes it easier to ignore those parts that don't fit your plan.

Which explains why the Catholic Church has managed to last over 2000 years........

That's my understanding. Since early in its history the Catholic Church as shown itself to be fairly adaptable when it needs to, so as to attract the locals.

"No, sorry, you can no longer worship the idol of your god Blorp, but I understand that Blorp converted, and you are encouraged to build a new cathedral for Saint Blorp."

[Sigma_Orionis]

I have the nagging suspicion that Benedict's "early retirement" was due to an internal power struggle between a Catholic Conservative faction and a more pragmatic one.

[SciFiFisher]

.... I guess that makes it easier to ignore those parts that don't fit your plan.

Which explains why the Catholic Church has managed to last over 2000 years........

That's my understanding. Since early in its history the Catholic Church as shown itself to be fairly adaptable when it needs to, so as to attract the locals.

"No, sorry, you can no longer worship the idol of your god Blorp, but I understand that Blorp converted, and you are encouraged to build a new cathedral for Saint Blorp."

Saint Blorp? He was awesome. Cured pestilence, converted wine into beer, and healed someone's dead grandma. And he was very humble too.

[SciFiFisher]

I have the nagging suspicion that Benedict's "early retirement" was due to an internal power struggle between a Catholic Conservative faction and a more pragmatic one.

At least these days they let Popes retire instead of coming up with creative ways to explain the sudden demise.

[Sigma_Orionis]

.... I guess that makes it easier to ignore those parts that don't fit your plan.

Which explains why the Catholic Church has managed to last over 2000 years........

That's my understanding. Since early in its history the Catholic Church as shown itself to be fairly adaptable when it needs to, so as to attract the locals.

"No, sorry, you can no longer worship the idol of your god Blorp, but I understand that Blorp converted, and you are encouraged to build a new cathedral for Saint Blorp."

Saint Blorp? He was awesome. Cured pestilence, converted wine into beer, and healed someone's dead grandma. And he was very humble too.

St. Blorp must be a relative of Zee's

[code monkey]

st. blorp was not a patch on the beloved upwinda the saint. he never washed and whenever he walked through a town the people would call out, 'stay upwinda the saint'.


source: lives of the saints, m.s. alexander