I don't understand

[Sigma_Orionis]

The execution game and security classified are two very different things. Only a tiny percentage of people that are executed are actually verified as been executed. Usually when data comes out it comes out with someone giving numbers of dead rather than names.

The files regarding what happened with JFK are still sealed because they may contain something that can impact either people or the security of the nation. Makes you wonder exactly what is so devastating after all those years. Most likely what was really uncovered was destroyed long ago anyway, just the shadow of the information remains.

Don't see why they're different, Assuming that the UK government decided that Turing being alive was a liability to the UK, and had to be killed, actually doing it (and making it look like a suicide or an accident) must have involved quite a number of people, if only because of the hierarchy in a government organization. All it takes is one of them feeling ethical or being sloppy or greedy and making a memoir and the whole secrecy thing collapses.

As for JFK, after almost 60 years, I think that the only secret there is on those files is that he had extra-marital affairs with everything carrying double X chromosomes in a 100 Km radius of the white house. Or that the investigation of the events regarding his death was amateurish and careless by today's standards, which is not surprising, considering those those days there were far less tools and procedures to do so than these days.

[Cyborg Girl]

I tend to agree with Sigma. There's an old saying that three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead. A government can make those two men dead very quickly indeed, but how many men does it take to do that?

Edit: of course things aren't quite that simple; if everyone's scared shitless of retribution, then a lot of people can keep a secret for quite a while. But I suspect that after 60+ years we would have learned if Turing's death was a hatchet job.

[FZR1KG]

As for JFK, after almost 60 years, I think that the only secret there is on those files is that he had extra-marital affairs with everything carrying double X chromosomes in a 100 Km radius of the white house. Or that the investigation of the events regarding his death was amateurish and careless by today's standards, which is not surprising, considering those those days there were far less tools and procedures to do so than these days.

Not sure how that affects the security of the nation and IIRC that's the reason given for not releasing the files.

[FZR1KG]

I tend to agree with Sigma. There's an old saying that three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead. A government can make those two men dead very quickly indeed, but how many men does it take to do that?

Edit: of course things aren't quite that simple; if everyone's scared shitless of retribution, then a lot of people can keep a secret for quite a while. But I suspect that after 60+ years we would have learned if Turing's death was a hatchet job.

I'll just go on the experience of the former Yugoslavia.
I've got plenty of relatives that were executed by the communist regime.
No records exist that they were even targeted but it was obvious they were executed.
Abducted by the secret police at night then their tortured bodies with their throats slit dumped back at their house as a form of intimidation.
Even after the collapse of communism the records never surfaced.

If you know you are guilty of a crime against humanity, you cover it up in any way possible so it doesn't come back on you or your family.
I'm pretty sure all governments know this lesson well.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Totalitarian regimes tend not to keep records and its easy for them to do so. In addition to what happened to your relatives in the former Yugoslavia, I am sure that the Khmer Rouge did not keep records of all the people it killed either. It has been well documented that the Nazis tried to destroy all the records they could about the Holocaust. In Argentina and Chile in the 70s, the military dictatorships of the time killed as many of their opponents as they could using the same tactics. In the last three cases it didn't make much difference: What they did came out.

I don't know enough of what Tito and Company did in Yugoslavia and I am nobody to tell you about it, you had relatives die and nobody accountable to that. But I can tell you this:

In Argentina and Chile, DESPITE that the Military thugs managed to wrestle immunity for their crimes (and destroyed as many records of them as they could) from the regimes that followed them as a condition to giving up power, they're getting prosecuted and put in jail. Takes decades to do so, but at least some of them are forced to pay for what they did

Whatever one can say about the UK government of the time of Turing, it was not a totalitarian regime, so it must have been a lot harder for them to erase records of stuff like this.

[Cyborg Girl]

My apologies, FZ; you clearly know what you're talking about regarding this. I'd forgotten about that... My bad.

[FZR1KG]

Never thought I'd say this but I have less trust in government than you Sigma. LOL

[FZR1KG]

My apologies, FZ; you clearly know what you're talking about regarding this. I'd forgotten about that... My bad.

No need to appologise GJ and you can question my reasoning all you want, in fact I like it when people do.
I'm not always right you know, one of these days I may make a mistake

[Sigma_Orionis]

Never thought I'd say this but I have less trust in government than you Sigma. LOL

if you had said that you trusted me more than any government, i would have said you didn't trust me much

[FZR1KG]

Never thought I'd say this but I have less trust in government than you Sigma. LOL

if you had said that you trusted me more than any government, i would have said you didn't trust me much

Well that could be taken two ways.
The way it was meant was that I trust the government less than you trust the government. Smart ass.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Might have to do with the fact that as useless and arbitrary our government is (remember, my old man was set to the joint on a whim) I've never had to deal with people I know being targeted by government death squads

[FZR1KG]

I hope you never do.

I had experience with communism and that was a really bitter taste.
Not that I think any of the 'ism's of the political world are immune to such criminal behaviour.
The reality is that communism wasn't the problem itself (much as I hate it), it's that the high ranking officers in the system were sociopaths.

Throw a few sociopaths high up in any political system and bingo, instant death squad potential.
The longer they stay there, the higher up they are, the more likely they already have done the deed even those above them are unaware of their actions.

Paperwork and sociopaths don't mix. They rely on no traceable evidence and they are damned good at it. They love to deceive people to get them to do things they wouldn't normally do.
Plus, they love power, so from my POV every government has them already running things in the background, willingly or not.
Likewise, all tyrants that have killed thousands or more were sociopaths. Again, my POV. One can't be a tyrant that kills lots of people and not be one. Take one or the other out and its not so conclusive.

Sad as it is, everything I look at now I look at from the POV of, what would this be like if I put a sociopath in charge here.
When you start looking at things from that POV, the world isn't as simple or clear cut as it would appear. Every system is going to be exploited unless they have inbuilt protections against such a person and since so few people deal with sociopaths they have no clue how to prevent a system from being corrupted by such individuals.

If there was a legitimate test for determining if one was a sociopath I would highly recommend that they never be put in positions of any power in either industry or government. The result will always be bad. ALWAYS.

I think the view I have is fundamentally why I have no problem accepting the possibility of assassinations never being discovered. It also changed my view more than anything I have experienced in life so far. Just a few months of being in daily contact with one then the action of what happened afterwards was enough for me to understand how they operate and just how hard it is to actually find one out. But, I said I'd never be a victim to one again and that means changing the way I see the world. Not that I'm saying I'm an expert, just that I am now everyday checking to see if one is walking into our lives.

Welcome to FZ's world, where everyone in any position of any power is a potential sociopath unless they have been checked off that list by careful interaction over a long period of time. Luckily the members of FWIS have been around for a loooong time so I don't have to worry about them.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Excellent... time to spring the trap!

[Sigma_Orionis]

If there was a legitimate test for determining if one was a sociopath I would highly recommend that they never be put in positions of any power in either industry or government. The result will always be bad. ALWAYS.

“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.”

Abraham Lincoln

[FZR1KG]

I never really believe that power corrupts, or that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think that people that are attracted to power are the ones that should never be given it.
Also, that people that are attracted to power are overall way more likely to be corrupted not by the power but their path to obtaining it.
As well as the fact that sociopaths just love power and lets face facts, they are already so fucked up that handing them power won't make a difference in their mindset in any way other than provide them the realisation of their dreams.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Poor Innocent Man, you've never been to Latin America have you?

[FZR1KG]

No. I've been to the Shenandoah Valley though.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I'll tell you a secret, wanna know why Latin America is always such a mess? Because our culture is oriented to power. Therefore, we produce sociopaths by the millions. The gringos are kindergarten kids compared to us in that particular matter