Shutdown!

[geonuc]

For whatever reason Boehner did it, good. This debt ceiling crap pisses me off. There shouldn't be a debt ceiling. The bills to spend money were already passed and signed into law, so deal with it. What is so hard about that?

It's a lot like Obamacare. It's the law now, so ... it's the law. You don't like it? Repeal it. De-funding a program shouldn't be an option. The founders got that one wrong.

[Rommie]

Fun story, was chatting to my dad on Sunday and he told me that some of his friends from Ohio down where he lives in Florida invited him to some shindig where Rob Portman, he Republican Senator from Ohio, was going to be there. But dad was hesitant to go because "Portman is one of those moderates, and I don't know if I could go and pretend to support him."

I flatly told my dad that if he really didn't want a moderate Republican running in Ohio then he should look forward to that state having a Democratic senator too. Kinda funny because I vote in Ohio, and never thought Portman was all that moderate, just everyone else around him has turned crazier.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Did your old man say anything after that?


Edited for clarity

[Rommie]

Something on the lines of making it clear to me he hadn't thought of that before (especially because my dad doesn't like the religious claptrap in the Republican party that Portman isn't much for either compared to the rest), and I encouraged my dad to go because he'd have an "interesting conversation." Kinda optimistic that he'll do so.

My dad is really one of the most wonderful people I know, but he holds onto his principles very deeply and doesn't see much difference between a compromise in politics and a compromise on your core values as a person.

[Swift]

Kinda funny because I vote in Ohio, and never thought Portman was all that moderate, just everyone else around him has turned crazier.

The only thing moderate about Portman is that he doesn't rant or say really stupid stuff, and after his son came out, he suddenly is more moderate about gay rights.

But on issues he is pretty conservative; maybe not Tea Party crazy, but conservative.

(as an aside, I find it funny and maddening these a-holes like Portman and Chenney who are so anti-gay, until one of their kids comes out of the closest. I assume they are also against government funding of disease research, until they or a family member get a particular disease )

[FZR1KG]

(as an aside, I find it funny and maddening these a-holes like Portman and Chenney who are so anti-gay, until one of their kids comes out of the closest. I assume they are also against government funding of disease research, until they or a family member get a particular disease )

Narcissists and sociopaths run the government. Once you accept that, everything makes scary sense.

[Swift]

(as an aside, I find it funny and maddening these a-holes like Portman and Chenney who are so anti-gay, until one of their kids comes out of the closest. I assume they are also against government funding of disease research, until they or a family member get a particular disease )

Narcissists and sociopaths run the government. Once you accept that, everything makes scary sense.

I figured it out a long time ago.

By the way, I've been thinking about this, and I owe SciFi Chick an appology. Way back when, at least one or two versions of FWIS ago, there was some sort of political discussion and the question of voting came up. IIRC (doubtful), SFC mentioned something about the fact that she didn't vote or thought it a waste of time, or something like that. I expressed disagreement with that idea and expressed my displeasure with people who didn't do their duty as citizens and vote.

Well, I was probably wrong. I still vote, at least when it isn't a big hassle (and with local elections, where it may make a difference) but I really don't care any longer. The last 5 years or so have beaten out of me most of my interest in politics and I've pretty much given up in thinking it makes a damn bit of difference. And I can't criticize someone who saw the light well before I did.

[geonuc]

Well, I was probably wrong. I still vote, at least when it isn't a big hassle (and with local elections, where it may make a difference) but I really don't care any longer. The last 5 years or so have beaten out of me most of my interest in politics and I've pretty much given up in thinking it makes a damn bit of difference. And I can't criticize someone who saw the light well before I did.

^^^^ What he said, although I would describe my views not as a lack of interest but as capitulation to the forces of evil. I am defeated.

[Swift]

Well, I was probably wrong. I still vote, at least when it isn't a big hassle (and with local elections, where it may make a difference) but I really don't care any longer. The last 5 years or so have beaten out of me most of my interest in politics and I've pretty much given up in thinking it makes a damn bit of difference. And I can't criticize someone who saw the light well before I did.

^^^^ What he said, although I would describe my views not as a lack of interest but as capitulation to the forces of evil. I am defeated.

That may be a better description.

Along similar lines, I've given up on the news. Just give me the weather and the sports and try not to get yourselves too worked up about the weather, the drool doesn't look good in front of the green screen.

[FZR1KG]

By the way, I've been thinking about this, and I owe SciFi Chick an appology. Way back when, at least one or two versions of FWIS ago, there was some sort of political discussion and the question of voting came up. IIRC (doubtful), SFC mentioned something about the fact that she didn't vote or thought it a waste of time, or something like that. I expressed disagreement with that idea and expressed my displeasure with people who didn't do their duty as citizens and vote.

Well, I was probably wrong. I still vote, at least when it isn't a big hassle (and with local elections, where it may make a difference) but I really don't care any longer. The last 5 years or so have beaten out of me most of my interest in politics and I've pretty much given up in thinking it makes a damn bit of difference. And I can't criticize someone who saw the light well before I did.

Pretty sure you have me mixed up with SFC.
I've always been the one that said, "Don't vote. You'll only encourage the bastards".
I haven't voted in about 20 years and it's compulsory to vote in Oz. I am risking fines and possible jail time by not doing so but it's highly unlikely for the latter.
She voted and still does though she did at one point debate if she should or not but she has been voting against the tea party for a while now.

In any case, no need to appologise to me or her. You do what you think/feel is right and we do the same.
If I get arrested for not voting I won't pay the fine and I'll go to prison. Then I'll make the statement that I escaped a communist country so we would not be political prisoners and yet it's Australia that made me into one. We'll see how that goes down. lol

[brite]

Well, I was probably wrong. I still vote, at least when it isn't a big hassle (and with local elections, where it may make a difference) but I really don't care any longer. The last 5 years or so have beaten out of me most of my interest in politics and I've pretty much given up in thinking it makes a damn bit of difference. And I can't criticize someone who saw the light well before I did.

^^^^ What he said, although I would describe my views not as a lack of interest but as capitulation to the forces of evil. I am defeated.

Here's the thing about not voting - for every non-vote, you give a vote to the guy you don't like. IOW (and this is especially true in heavily gerrymandered districts) every one who doesn't vote (out of protest or what have you) helps to put those "wonderful" Tea Party folk into office, because, while they aren't voting FOR the Republican/Tea Party, they aren't voting for the Democrats either, and the Democrats have been pretty much gerrymandered right out of the district.

In the 2012 elections, Democrats won the overwhelming majority of the votes, yet LOST House and Senate seats, thanks to gerrymandering and people not voting.

Personally... While I may the local PinkoCommieLiberal... I don't care who you vote for... I think that it's your civil duty to vote. Call it the price of admission for living in this country. It doesn't cost you anything other than finding out what your local, state and federal governmental critters are up to, from time to time. Don't pay attention to the news cycles, they are 24 hour and run on sound bytes only.

Above all else... think for yourself!

[geonuc]

Personally... While I may the local PinkoCommieLiberal...

If you mean here on FWIS, I think you may need to take another look around. Can't swing a dead cat on this forum without hitting a PCL.

[FZR1KG]

Thankfully I'm a conservative.

[SciFi Chick]

Pretty sure you have me mixed up with SFC.
I've always been the one that said, "Don't vote. You'll only encourage the bastards".
I haven't voted in about 20 years and it's compulsory to vote in Oz. I am risking fines and possible jail time by not doing so but it's highly unlikely for the latter.
She voted and still does though she did at one point debate if she should or not but she has been voting against the tea party for a while now.

In any case, no need to appologise to me or her. You do what you think/feel is right and we do the same.
If I get arrested for not voting I won't pay the fine and I'll go to prison. Then I'll make the statement that I escaped a communist country so we would not be political prisoners and yet it's Australia that made me into one. We'll see how that goes down. lol

They had it right. I remember this. A couple of years ago, I got very, very frustrated, and I thought for awhile that I wouldn't bother voting because I was disillusioned with Obama.

However, geonuc has crystallized it way better than I did.

capitulation to the forces of evil. I am defeated.

And I no longer hate Obama. I sincerely believe that he got in there and found out that it's impossible to bring real change with the current state of those with money running everything. I appreciate brite's perspective on this, but I honestly think she is tilting at windmills.

I am sincerely grateful that I am escaping this country, and saying that really breaks my heart. I'm not being the least bit flippant. I find myself reading loads of post-apocalyptic young adult fiction these days, and I'm sadly finding them quite believable.

For the record, I hope brite proves us all wrong. But I think I can have more impact on this country by writing stories... from somewhere else. *sigh*

Oh - and no one owes me an apology. I love that we have different views here. Forces us to really think about what we believe and either change or really be able to communicate our beliefs more effectively.

[code monkey]

sorry, guys. if you don't vote you lose all rights to complaining.

[Cyborg Girl]

cm, I really have to disagree. When voting becomes a matter of chosing the lesser evil, everyone has a right to complain.

(In a way, I think some of the people who don't vote have more right to complain. They've been shown that their ideas don't matter. They can't vote for their ideas because their ideas are not represented, no matter how good those ideas are. That's pretty complaint worthy IMO.)

[FZR1KG]

Pretty much.
There is no way a two party system can represent peoples views even reasonably.
That means that sheep vote the rest are given two shitty choices where they lose or lose.

Bit like giving you a choice between cutting off your right arm with brand x pain killer or brand y pain killer.
Who gives a shit what pain killer you are using, that totally misses the point that your arm is about to be lost either way.
I simply won't provide legitimacy to a system that forces me to make a choice that I don't want.

The best part is that they have convinced the majority that by not voting you are irresponsible.
That makes no sense whatsoever. It means that making the wrong choice is irresponsible. Or in other words, one choice is totally wrong.
So why have a two party system?
Smoke and mirrors for assholes that pull the strings and make the public believe they have some control in their destiny.
The reality is they don't. The public is simply a work force for the rich and powerful.
Just like having an ox on a farm and giving it a choice of eating wheat or barely and expecting it to think it has freedom.
And just remember that China and India have ox's that will eat hay and work more without demanding a bit of grain.

[geonuc]

To be clear, I still vote. After all, I do treasure my right to complain. But I am totally disillusioned with the whole political situation and do not think it will right itself in the foreseeable future. Moreover, I think the country is suffering irreparable harm in terms of being a 'good' place to live. It still is, for now, but if I had children, I'd worry for their future.

[SciFi Chick]

To be clear, I still vote. After all, I do treasure my right to complain. But I am totally disillusioned with the whole political situation and do not think it will right itself in the foreseeable future. Moreover, I think the country is suffering irreparable harm in terms of being a 'good' place to live. It still is, for now, but if I had children, I'd worry for their future.

Exactly. I vote as well. I went out of my way to vote, both in the Presidential election here as well as the local one. I find the recent crop of Republicans too scary not to vote against them. But there is an inexorable slide towards extremism that my votes aren't doing a damn thing to stop.

And to say that we can't complain if we don't vote is a bit like telling refugees they can't complain about what's happening in their home country because they left.

[SciFiFisher]

I think the expression "if you don't vote you can't complain about the results" is really a generalized statement. The reality is that voting by itself is only part of the equation. If you want things to improve or change then you have to participate in the process. Unfortunately, real participation requires time and commitment which many of us may not have the ability to provide.

The bare minimum requirement is that you make yourself aware of the issues and the candidates and vote. Sometimes it looks like your voting has no real effect. And sometimes it doesn't. On the other hand if voting were totally ineffective then things like gay marriage would never have made it onto the ballots of all the states that they have. And it would never have made it to the supreme court to be ruled on when Prop 8 was ratified in California. Of course, those who voted FOR proposition 8 will tell you that voting doesn't matter anymore with those $#%@! activist judges ruling against what the majority of people wanted.

Right now we seem to be in a trend in the US where things seem to be or are getting worse. What I can guarantee is that if we stop voting and do nothing and let a small fringe group keep buying elections and gerrymandering districts then it will indeed continue to get worse.

That's why I will continue to vote for candidates that I view as being less radical or more centrist regardless of which party they affiliate with. I won't always get what I want but I sure as heck can do my best to keep the Rand's, Bachman's, and the Palin's from winning elections.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Personally... While I may the local PinkoCommieLiberal...

If you mean here on FWIS, I think you may need to take another look around. Can't swing a dead cat on this forum without hitting a PCL.

This is all for you Damned Nuclear Geological Legal Pinko Commie Liberal

[geonuc]

I think the expression "if you don't vote you can't complain about the results" is really a generalized statement. The reality is that voting by itself is only part of the equation. If you want things to improve or change then you have to participate in the process.

Goddamit. You mean I not only have to vote but I have to know who and what I'm voting for? That's insane. Who thought up this madness? We had a perfectly good dictatorial monarchy going.

[geonuc]

Personally... While I may the local PinkoCommieLiberal...

If you mean here on FWIS, I think you may need to take another look around. Can't swing a dead cat on this forum without hitting a PCL.

This is all for you Damned Nuclear Geological Legal Pinko Commie Liberal

[brite]

I think the expression "if you don't vote you can't complain about the results" is really a generalized statement. The reality is that voting by itself is only part of the equation. If you want things to improve or change then you have to participate in the process.

Goddamit. You mean I not only have to vote but I have to know who and what I'm voting for? That's insane. Who thought up this madness? We had a perfectly good dictatorial monarchy going.

You really need to quite reading those radical right wing blogs, dude....

[FZR1KG]

I think the expression "if you don't vote you can't complain about the results" is really a generalized statement. The reality is that voting by itself is only part of the equation. If you want things to improve or change then you have to participate in the process.

Goddamit. You mean I not only have to vote but I have to know who and what I'm voting for? That's insane. Who thought up this madness? We had a perfectly good dictatorial monarchy going.

Technically not voting is a taking part in the process by saying that you reject all of them and their corruption.
As an example, if no member of the public showed up to vote, imagine the fear that would hit the politicians.
The more people that vote the more they know they have the public under their spell.
Deprive them of that power. Let them wonder wtf is about to happen when no one turns up on the day other than them and their lackies.
That is the day the public shows that they are the ones with power and not the other way around.
Remember, a lack of vote is a vote of no confidence and that can make dramatic changes.