Ukraine

[Cyborg Girl]

I heard something on NPR about the Russians amassing troops, and also having them dig lots of ditches... I do not like the sound of this at all.

[FZR1KG]

Damned Putana.

[Rommie]

The referendum is today! Gee I wonder how that's gonna turn out?

[Sigma_Orionis]

I'll go on a limb and venture that it will be 100% in favor of joining Russia....

[Sigma_Orionis]

Ok, I was off by 4.5%

And the Pro-Kiev Crimeans boicotted the referendum, I guess they're as stupid as Venezuelans. OTOH Pooty has shown to be less subtle than Chavez he could have had his Pro-Russkie Crimeans to at least try to have international Observers in situ.

[cid]

Heard something som'ers that there wasn't a "no" option on the ballots...

[Sigma_Orionis]

Ok, Who lost Crimea?

[Sigma_Orionis]

Suprise!

Ukraine crisis: Putin signs Russia-Crimea treaty

President Vladimir Putin and the leaders of Crimea have signed a bill to absorb the peninsula into Russia.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Hey Fisher.

This Anti-Putin Chess Player agrees with you.

[SciFiFisher]

Hey Fisher.

This Anti-Putin Chess Player agrees with you.

I must be right then.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Sure, Sure, the HNIC is a spineless bleeding heart liberal that talks about red lines and then struggles to come up with excuses not to carry out his threats......

With help like this.....

Ukraine crisis: The weakness of Europe

In both Washington and Moscow I suspect officials are asking the same question of Europe: "How strong is its resolve when it comes to Ukraine?"

This week brought a reminder that Europe's economies are still struggling to emerge from recession, that unemployment remains stubbornly high and that there is growing discontent with the political establishment in many countries.

Privately the Americans say EU sanctions "are very limited and symbolic". But at their summit in Brussels last week the Europeans pledged to move to some form of economic sanctions if there was an escalation of Russian military action.

European officials last week insisted that the measures announced so far are having an impact. But President Putin scoffed at the moves. Ukraine's Ambassador to the UK, Volodymyr Khandogiy, said that Europe had not done enough to help Ukraine. "The US," he went on to say, "is more resolute in their actions and words".

Oy Vei, that hoits.......

[SciFiFisher]

This would be easy to fix if it were 60 years ago. We would draft all able bodied men, raise taxes, and solve the recession and the unemployment problem globally simply by declaring war on Russia and it's allies. Everyone would have jobs, the money would flow, and the women would make quilts to send to the Joe's overseas. Ah, the good old days when they knew how to solve economic and foreign aggression problems the right way.

[Sigma_Orionis]

That's what you get for developing the atomic bomb. it's all your fault.

[SciFiFisher]

That's what you get for developing the atomic bomb. it's all your fault.

No, that's what we get for developing the atomic bomb and then letting the bleeding heart scientists give away the secrets because they assumed that if everyone had the bomb then war would be abolished. IIRC one of the main reasons Russia and others got the bomb was because our own scientists leaked the secret. And yes, it partly it was because they really were so freaking delusional that they thought it would end war. And a totally misguided belief that no one nation could be trusted with that much power.

Although to be honest it's hard to say how many years that shaved off anyone else getting the bomb. In science once you know something is possible it really is only a matter of time before you can do it yourself. And it's not like the US was really going to tell the rest of the world "everyone start holding elections and become democratic right now or we are turning you into a nuclear wasteland".

All it really did was cause everyone who could to go on a nuke building frenzy. And created a really bad theory called Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD).

[Sigma_Orionis]

No no no, you misunderstand me, you are El Diablos Norteamericanos, BY DEFINITION it's all your fault.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Fisher: You misremember. Klaus Fuchs worked on both the Tube Alloys and Manhattan Projects. He provided nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union for ideological reasons - he was a communist.

[Cyborg Girl]

letting the bleeding heart scientists give away the secrets

This is a nation of opportunities, Fisher... It's also a nation of for-profit prisons, for-profit wars, and medical experiments on minorities. We all know that here. So do not. even. fucking. start. with the whitewashing. Okay?

If it weren't for people like you our borders would be undefended. If it weren't for the "bleeding hearts," those borders would be demarcated with heads stuck up on pikes. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't care to live in either of those worlds.

[SciFiFisher]

letting the bleeding heart scientists give away the secrets

This is a nation of opportunities, Fisher... It's also a nation of for-profit prisons, for-profit wars, and medical experiments on minorities. We all know that here. So do not. even. fucking. start. with the whitewashing. Okay?

If it weren't for people like you our borders would be undefended. If it weren't for the "bleeding hearts," those borders would be demarcated with heads stuck up on pikes. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't care to live in either of those worlds.

But GJ, I am of the old school "if you are a carpenter then every problem is a nail" type person. So, of course, there is a military solution to every problem.

Post by The Supreme Canuck » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:59 pm

Fisher: You misremember. Klaus Fuchs worked on both the Tube Alloys and Manhattan Projects. He provided nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union for ideological reasons - he was a communist.

Yes, there were some who were ideologically motivated as they felt communism was the way to go. But, there really were spies who did it because they thought it would prevent a war. One of them was Theodore Hall. What is really interesting is that he was never formally charged or punished for betraying the U.S.

[Cyborg Girl]

In other words, trying to Do What Is Necessary At Any Cost. Just like the ideal soldier. Except a) he wasn't a soldier and b) what he considered Necessary came at a cost to hist homeland instead of someone else's.

Some people might consider a guy like that a real patriot. I certainly don't, but I don't put his rationalizations very far from a rabid nationalist's.

[SciFiFisher]

letting the bleeding heart scientists give away the secrets

This is a nation of opportunities, Fisher... It's also a nation of for-profit prisons, for-profit wars, and medical experiments on minorities. We all know that here. So do not. even. fucking. start. with the whitewashing. Okay?

If it weren't for people like you our borders would be undefended. If it weren't for the "bleeding hearts," those borders would be demarcated with heads stuck up on pikes. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't care to live in either of those worlds.

On a more serious note I offer you this observation for consideration. Because the idealists gave away the secrets to the bomb the US and it's allies were pitted in a war against China, the USSR, and their allies that was fought almost entirely by proxies. Because the US, China, and the USSR could never confront each other directly for fear that it would lead to nuclear war. So, millions were killed in Vietnam instead. China and the USSR were allowed to kill millions internally because no one wanted to spark WWIII and face nuclear holocaust. millions more were killed from approximately 1947 to currently in South America, Africa, Southeast and Southwest Asia, Eastern Europe, and anywhere else our ideologies have clashed.

And in those countries where communist proxies fought there were plenty of heads stuck up on pikes. So, consider this. It may be theorized that idealists and bleeding heart liberals are actually indirectly responsible for more heads on pikes in the last 68 years than the military has.

[Cyborg Girl]

Yeah, and who does the actual sticking of heads up on pikes?

Like I said: I don't consider Hall and his ilk to be patriotic, or righteous, or any such thing. What he did was idiotic, deluded, and unethical. My problem is that you are engaged in at least one of two things here:
a) Hypocrisy. It's okay for good patriotic soldiers to Do What Is Necessary At Any Cost, but not for bleeding heart scientists to do the same (with similarly bad results).
b) Jingoism. It's okay to commit a crime for what you believe to be the greater good of your country, but not for what you believe to be the greater good of humanity as a whole.

Also, "bleeding heart" is the sort of phrasing that usually goes, in my experience, with choices like "liberal traitors" (and sometimes much worse).

[Morrolan]

And most European armies are now regretting they got rid of most of their tanks...

[Cyborg Girl]

Alright, take two. I'm also a hypocrite. What I said about being nonjudgmental earlier... (deep breath) I'll try not to lose my temper this time around.

Fisher, I know you're a good guy. I have seen you at it. You can be bloody awesome sometimes (okay a lot of the time).

As it happens, I also think you're right re leaking secrets of atomic bombmaking to the Soviets. Letting the knowledge spread around was criminally stupid to start with; letting a lunatic mass murderer like Joseph Stalin have it was starkers (even when you consider that the people who leaked it didn't have the benefit of hindsight).

What I object to above is
a) The generalized swipe at people on my side of the political spectrum, many of whom would not be stupid enough to do such a thing
b) What looks to me like a double standard, wherein ends-justify-the-means behavior can be judged differently depending on who does it
c) Likewise, the apparent belief that the ends justify the means if the results are good, but not if they're bad (see again "benefits of hindsight"). One should hold people accountable first for their actions, and second for the consequences thereof, IMO.

Hope that makes things clearer.

[SciFiFisher]

Yeah, and who does the actual sticking of heads up on pikes?

Like I said: I don't consider Hall and his ilk to be patriotic, or righteous, or any such thing. What he did was idiotic, deluded, and unethical. My problem is that you are engaged in at least one of two things here:
a) Hypocrisy. It's okay for good patriotic soldiers to Do What Is Necessary At Any Cost, but not for bleeding heart scientists to do the same (with similarly bad results).
b) Jingoism. It's okay to commit a crime for what you believe to be the greater good of your country, but not for what you believe to be the greater good of humanity as a whole.

Also, "bleeding heart" is the sort of phrasing that usually goes, in my experience, with choices like "liberal traitors" (and sometimes much worse).

Really? You honestly beleive that by critizing someone for commiting treason in the name of the greater good for humanity that it makes me a hypocrite or a jingoist? When have you ever heard me justify a war crime or a crime of any type simply because of patriotism?

As for the greater good of humanity.... there is no way I will EVER beleive that giving the soviets or the chinese the secrets to atomic weapons was an act that was for the greater good of humanity. And at the end of the day it does not matter what the rationalization was. Commiting a crime for any reason is not Ok.

[SciFi Chick]

a) The generalized swipe at people on my side of the political spectrum, many of whom would not be stupid enough to do such a thing

Are you freakin' serious with this? Do you remember who he's married to?