Ukraine

[brite]

Maybe that had something to do with this:

Ukraine crisis: Russia vows no invasion

I bet you'll take Uncle Vlad's word for it any day wouldn't you Parrothead?

And this:

Putin Calls Obama to Discuss Ukraine, White House Says

Is Pooty feeling the heat or simply pretending he is?

I have said this before... Putin would like to get the old gang together again... the old Soviet block, with him at the helm. I'm suspecting that somewhere along the line, someone told him that he would make a great Supreme Soviet, and he took it to heart. And then the collapse came, and Putin's borderline personality just couldn't take it.

And here's the rub - US foreign policy is that in general, Eastern Europe isn't that important to us. We trade with them, but strategically... they are about as useful as Kamchenka.

To the Europeans, however, who have been dealing with the old Soviet block and with the current Russian regime, Russia owning the Ukraine, Crimea, Georgia or any other part of Eastern Europe is a horror show. They get much of their oil from there, they trade with them heavily, they have diplomatic relations with them and they have been trying to support them in their bids for more democratic regimes.

What Americans don't realize is that what these people consider democratic may not look like our form of democracy (that's the starter). What Putin did is illegal. But it's not, and I'm going to repeat that for the people in the back row... NOT... up to the US to start a shooting war with him. We can't. We haven't the manpower, we haven't the will and we certainly haven't the money to save the world.

HOWEVER - the psychological war has begun. Putin thinks of himself as a "manly man". And the truth is, he is nothing more than a bully. And if the world treats him as a bully, and doesn't give into his demands (which is what the phone calls was about - give me what I want, and I won't invade the Ukraine... be we all know that I'm going to do it anyway, I have 50,000 troops amassed on the border, neener neener!) And you cut off his access to money, trade and services... his people are going to start to feel the bite.

It's a long game. Instant gratification is for war mongers.

[Sigma_Orionis]

What Americans don't realize is that what these people consider democratic may not look like our form of democracy (that's the starter). What Putin did is illegal. But it's not, and I'm going to repeat that for the people in the back row... NOT... up to the US to start a shooting war with him. We can't. We haven't the manpower, we haven't the will and we certainly haven't the money to save the world.

Well.... Weaponized Keynesiansim would get the economy going........ the thing is of course how to put the breaks on it before one you two breaks out the nukes....

[brite]

What Americans don't realize is that what these people consider democratic may not look like our form of democracy (that's the starter). What Putin did is illegal. But it's not, and I'm going to repeat that for the people in the back row... NOT... up to the US to start a shooting war with him. We can't. We haven't the manpower, we haven't the will and we certainly haven't the money to save the world.

Well.... Weaponized Keynesiansim would get the economy going........ the thing is of course how to put the breaks on it before one you two breaks out the nukes....

Which is why Lindsey Graham and John McCain aren't President and First Lady....

[Parrothead]

Looks like things be heating up again. Putin likes playing games, fighters buzzing US Destroyer in the Black Sea, yesterday. In the past years they have buzzed neighbouring countries and some time ago sending old bombers to buzz N. Am. Have to admit those aboard showed great restraint, while being buzzed 21 (IIRC) times over a span of a couple of hours. Both sides likely got info from the incident.

Reports of Ukraine moving troops/vehicles east to troubled regions. Damned if they don't act, if they do act, Russia could send troops in.

[Morrolan]

you have to admit, Putain is running a textbook campaign: if the situation does not pan out as he wants he has plausible (sort of) deniability and if it does (meaning Ukraine will send its troops to suppress this with force), he can fall back on his old credo of having to protect the Volksdeutsche... i mean native Russian speakers and bring in troops without masks.

at the same time the flirting with empire is increasing his status with those in Russia that are longing for the romantic times of the Soviet Union (not really romantic, but most of those flirting with it are too young to actually remember how bad it was) and the global superpower status it brought.

he's been reading up on his history.

i'm sorry to say this, but the Baltics should be extremely concerned.

[Rommie]

Looks like the Ukranians are not letting this one go by without a fight though- good for them, they're not idiots. Seems pretty obvious too that some if not most of the separatists have been bussed in from Russia itself.

Going to visit my grandma in eastern Hungary this weekend mind, likely closer to the border than some might prefer who don't realize not all of Ukraine is the same place, so I look forward to hearing my grandma explain how this is 1956 all over again.

Re: the Baltics, that's one thing I'm not 100% certain of as they are all Nato members unlike Ukraine. I think Putin is now acting as aggressively as he is because he knows we are not obliged to bail them out, but I think things are a far cry different when a country like Latvia (which is so into the EU that it uses the Euro) is the one you decide to invade.

That said I'm also kinda impressed with how quickly Europe has stopped paying attention to a large degree to the whole thing. A month ago everyone was outraged at the entire thing, now I've yet to hear someone mention this (except the Dutch government saying they might send a fighter plane or two to the area... well they've gotta say something).

[The Supreme Canuck]

Yeah, invading Latvia or one of the other Baltics means war with NATO. Putin's not that stupid. Even if the US doesn't care otherwise, they have an interest in maintaining the alliance, which would fall apart if they didn't intervene.

[Parrothead]

The Baltics are EU and NATO members, thing is they are small and it wouldn't take long to roll across them. IIRC, NATO's airbase for the area, is based in Lithuania, manned by rotating staff from different member nations. Looks like Moldova is the next to worry Trans-Dneister (sp) region.

Gotta love the hypocracy from Russia, they warn Ukraine about using force in their own country, while it has been pretty well settled that Russia is backing the protesters that are uprising and causing damage, likely even sending in special forces to help foment the unrest. There are talks scheduled for tomorrow, I'm not expecting anything to come of them. This all started because Russia didn't like Ukraine moving towards Europe and imposed severe restrictions at their borders with Ukraine and using gasline politics, to get Yanokovitch (sp) to crackdown, creating more of a hornet's nest.

Like I stated (and others) this is exactly the type of behaviour that was used back during the Soviet era. I've read stories how teachers in Russia are once again having to teach a revised history, now that Crimea has been annexed. I see them eventually once again falling into a very convoluted and conflicting narrative, to support the whims of the ruler.

[Swift]

Yeah, invading Latvia or one of the other Baltics means war with NATO. Putin's not that stupid. Even if the US doesn't care otherwise, they have an interest in maintaining the alliance, which would fall apart if they didn't intervene.

I agree. Putin is power-hungry, he might be more than a little crazy, but he isn't stupid.

[Rommie]

Another thing about the Baltics I should point out is even if the US were to not step in I guarantee you Europe would in general. No one wants those tanks to roll in again.

Beyond that I did do a bit of thinking already on what would be the "next Ukraine" and honestly it's hard to say- you could argue Moldova or Belarus but those have always been Russian strongholds and there haven't been similar protests etc there. Maybe down towards Georgia and Armenia...

[Sigma_Orionis]

Pooty Says he hopes he is not forced to use his 'right' to invade Ukraine.....

And my old man bitches about the US being hypocritical......

[Sigma_Orionis]

As usual it's all the Evil Gringos' Fault:

Ukraine crisis: US runs the show in Kiev, says Sergei Lavrov

[Morrolan]

and in further news: Sweden increases defense budget with 10% over Ukraine and Dutch and UK fighters intercepted two Tu-95 bombers in their airspace...

feels like the 70s all over again...

(fixed link)

[The Supreme Canuck]

Hm. I wonder how long it's going to be until we see bombers in North American (read: Canadian) airspace? They were up to it again just a few years ago.

[Parrothead]

TSC - from what I heard from a news report yesterday, the bomber flights haven't stopped, just getting more coverage again, given current events. Every so often they test responses along the west coast, Alaska and parts of Canada.

I like this story.

Yup, if you act against separatists holed up in administrative buildings in your own country, we may be forced to invade, as you are moving against your own people. If something similar happened in our country, the said separatists would be criminals and we'd act against them. You, however, must let them be.

Others report, people of East Ukraine should look at Crimea now, then ask do we really want to be part of Russia. Apparantly, things are in disarray, ruble now official currency, no real way for converting cash over. Those turning 18 will be expected to register for duty in Russian army. Russia's laws now apply, including their anti-gay legislation, etc.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Oh, I was under the impression that the ongoing bomber flights were approaching North American airspace without crossing into it. The big stink a few years back was because they crossed the line. That's not right, I suppose?

[Swift]

feels like the 70s all over again...

Who says you can't live your childhood over again.

Hey kids! Duck and cover!

[Sigma_Orionis]

What do you know, Swift played Fallout

[Swift]

What do you know, Swift played Fallout

We didn't play, we lived it.

I'm not even making a joke. When I was in elementary school in the 1960s we actually did nuclear war drills, where we would hide under our desks (and they were desks like those), or stand in the hallway away from doors or windows (flying glass). And yes, as an 8 year old I had a pretty good idea what it was about, and yes, it generally scared the crap out of me and gave me nightmares about WWIII.

[Morrolan]

ha! Putain just had a May Day parade! i'm waiting for the official reinstatement of the hammer and sickle as the Russian Federation's symbol, for historic reasons and because it's in the 'heart of hearts' of real Russians... lolz.

[Sigma_Orionis]

What do you know, Swift played Fallout

We didn't play, we lived it.

I'm not even making a joke. When I was in elementary school in the 1960s we actually did nuclear war drills, where we would hide under our desks (and they were desks like those), or stand in the hallway away from doors or windows (flying glass). And yes, as an 8 year old I had a pretty good idea what it was about, and yes, it generally scared the crap out of me and gave me nightmares about WWIII.

Yeah, I saw the institutional movie they probably showed you about it at the time (Duck and Cover).

I meant that the illustration you used was taken from a game called Fallout which of course deals with WWIII and everything on it is 50ish/60ish.

[Swift]

I meant that the illustration you used was taken from a game called Fallout which of course deals with WWIII and everything on it is 50ish/60ish.

Oh. I didn't know that.

The illustration I used was taken from googling "duck and cover"; I didn't know the source.

[Parrothead]

Thankfully the OSCE observers have been released, too bad that the violence continues to escalate. We'll see if Russia moves across the border or not. I thought I heard some report yesterday, that 10,000 troops had moved just across the border, don't know how valid the report was.

Right now, they are definately aiming at de-stabilizing the country to make the chance of any election being held, beyond difficult.

Russian media reports of events continue to mystify and scare.

[Parrothead]

A couple of more sham referendums have now taken place. Separatists asking for absorption into Russia. Russia not fully accomodating yet, but saying the "will of the people" must be respected. These two regions' sepratists are also stating that voting in the upcoming Ukrainian presidential elections will not be allowed, in their regions, on May 25th.

Yeah, this will help ease tensions.

[FZR1KG]

Russians, Serbs, same mentality when trying to annex another country.