Ferguson

[Rommie]

So how is there no thread about this? I go on holiday and you all slack off on one of the biggest news stories of the year?

For me, the biggest point in all of the story is it's honestly an inevitable outcome of the militarization of police we have discussed a bit here earlier- if you have all that stuff then why not use it, right? What is interesting for me however is there seem to be plenty of people on both sides of the aisle objecting to how things have been going, and saying such actions are unacceptable. It makes me wonder if things are going to be reigned in when it comes to police militarization.

But then they've now called in the National Guard because of increased unrest, and it doesn't seem that all of it comes from people just wanting to protest, so maybe not.

[Swift]

Maybe its me, but I don't find the story all that interesting.

This isn't anything that new or unusual; these police shootings happen all the time. I'm not saying I approve of them, but I don't know why this one is getting all the press or making all the waves.

There is a lot of wrongs on all the different sides of this story. The violence and the looting is not excused by police misconduct. I'm not convinced that this kid was all that innocent, but I also suspect the policeman over-reacted.

I'm quite content to let the Justice Department and the Grand Jury figure it all out. Someone wake me in a couple of months and tell me what happened.

[FZR1KG]

Haven't been up with the news lately. Too much stupidity to deal with here and Oz at the moment.

[SciFiFisher]

It's been a topic of discussion at the Brite and Scififisher home. I tend toward the "if you are going to riot and loot then you deserve tear gas and M-RAP's" type. Brite is more of a "if you gun down an 18 year old black kid for walking down the middle of the road you deserve public outrage" type.

[SciFi Chick]

It's been a topic of discussion at the Brite and Scififisher home. I tend toward the "if you are going to riot and loot then you deserve tear gas and M-RAP's" type. Brite is more of a "if you gun down an 18 year old black kid for walking down the middle of the road you deserve public outrage" type.

I'm with brite. I'm also very disturbed about how the mainstream media is playing it vs. NPR. And NPR has crazy things like sources to back up what it's reporting.

Whether the kid was innocent or not, shooting him multiple times seems completely unreasonable to me.

As for the looting, what the mainstream media keeps ignoring is that it appears that the looters are coming from outside of Ferguson. Opportunists in other words.

I could go on and on about this, because it has really captured my attention. But since I've been listening to it on NPR instead of reading about it, it didn't occur to me to mention it here.

[FZR1KG]

Kid was shot 10 times, 5 in the head, stabbed 53 times while handcuffed behind his back to a telephone pole.
Sheriff's office was quoted as saying it's the worse recorded case in the county of suicide.

[Rommie]

Six times to the front is what I read. What I don't get about that is it sounds to me like really shitty training on part of the cop. Even if this kid was rushing the cop (worst case scenario I can think of) you can't neutralize a threat in less than six bullets?

But then yes it's the modern of the Internet age that we can all make judgements without a criminal proceeding... but then the reason many are upset is Michael Brown was never given such an option (even if he did steal some cigars). But the police reaction is telling enough- in my version of America at least you do not point weapons at protesters. Even if there are looters in the bunch.

[squ1d]

From what I've read, it sounds like this incident has bought pre existing racial tensions and power/economic imbalances between white and black people in the area to a head. Then of course you get the opportunistic thieves/vandals. But, to focus only on those douchebags is to ignore the other potentially real and valid reasons to continue to protest.

[geonuc]

It's been a topic of discussion at the Brite and Scififisher home. I tend toward the "if you are going to riot and loot then you deserve tear gas and M-RAP's" type. Brite is more of a "if you gun down an 18 year old black kid for walking down the middle of the road you deserve public outrage" type.

You're both right, really. Although I don't like seeing city police outfitted with military hardware. The looters need to be handled with some measure of force; the protesters should be allowed to assemble and voice their opposition to police actions, however vocal that gets. We have a right to call the police racist murdering pigs if we want to.

Perhaps the most disturbing thing to me are the reports of media members being harassed or detained with their equipment confiscated. That goes a long way past crossing the line in terms of police misconduct. Gunning down people for walking in the street crosses the line, too.

[SciFiFisher]

Six times to the front is what I read. What I don't get about that is it sounds to me like really shitty training on part of the cop. Even if this kid was rushing the cop (worst case scenario I can think of) you can't neutralize a threat in less than six bullets?

But then yes it's the modern of the Internet age that we can all make judgements without a criminal proceeding... but then the reason many are upset is Michael Brown was never given such an option (even if he did steal some cigars). But the police reaction is telling enough- in my version of America at least you do not point weapons at protesters. Even if there are looters in the bunch.

as a former military LEO I definitely am appalled. A lot of these shootings highlight the fact that the police are not training for the right things or they are not training at all. Dealing with civil unrest is should be law enforcement 202. Law Enforcement 101 should be basic public courtesy. alternate title: Never engage in a pissing contest. Both parties wind up covered in piss and smelling bad.

I agree that it is easy to rush to judgment and convict people without due process. In this case it's almost hard not to with what we know. But, here is the challenge that makes it so difficult for the average person to understand. There is no such thing as an unarmed person. I know that doesn't jibe with what we are taught to believe. but.... A man without a gun is no less dangerous than a man with a gun in the right circumstances. Ask any paramedic, EMT, or law enforcement officer who has been bitten by a criminal with Hepatitis C or HIV. Ask any cop who has suddenly had a 120 pound freaked out drug addled addict suddenly turn into something out of a horror flick titled "The thing that would not die". I know of a case where an army deserter in Vietnam was shot over 20 times while fleeing with a stolen air force jeep. The deserter lived. According to the doctors who treated him he was so high on drugs that his body didn't know it had been shot and it never went into shock.

Given those kind of conditions and a law enforcement officer who probably hasn't been to an anger management class in years or had the right training and you have a recipe for disaster.

[brite]

There are at least two witnesses who are disputing what the police are saying about Brown. The store owners are saying that Brown is not guilty of shoplifting and paid for the cigars and that they never called the police. Brown doesn't have any priors. The Ferguson brought in the riot police right after a prayer vigil on Sunday night, before there was any looting or rioting. Someone needs to duct tape the police chief, the mayor and the governor (Really?? NG?? Curfews? You were on the right track with Capt Johnson, you morons!)
Timeline with witness statement: http://www.salon.com/2014/08/15/michael ... ying_what/

[Sigma_Orionis]

Ferguson unrest: Egypt urges US to show restraint

[code monkey]

It's been a topic of discussion at the Brite and Scififisher home. I tend toward the "if you are going to riot and loot then you deserve tear gas and M-RAP's" type. Brite is more of a "if you gun down an 18 year old black kid for walking down the middle of the road you deserve public outrage" type.

how are these opinions mutually exclusive?

[FZR1KG]

I know of a case where an army deserter in Vietnam was shot over 20 times while fleeing with a stolen air force jeep. The deserter lived. According to the doctors who treated him he was so high on drugs that his body didn't know it had been shot and it never went into shock.

Marines: 1 shot, 1 kill
Army: 20 shots, yeah he's pretty beat up, but he'd live.

I now have another case to prove that the Army can't shoot for shit!

[FZR1KG]

Six times to the front is what I read. What I don't get about that is it sounds to me like really shitty training on part of the cop. Even if this kid was rushing the cop (worst case scenario I can think of) you can't neutralize a threat in less than six bullets?

This is why they need military hardware. So they can use the spray and pray method of pin point sniping.

[SciFiFisher]

It's been a topic of discussion at the Brite and Scififisher home. I tend toward the "if you are going to riot and loot then you deserve tear gas and M-RAP's" type. Brite is more of a "if you gun down an 18 year old black kid for walking down the middle of the road you deserve public outrage" type.

how are these opinions mutually exclusive?

Brite and others feel that the police are over militarized and respond with force too early and too easily. In essence because the police are doing it wrong they shouldn't be doing it. the police militancy is causing the violence to flare. i.e. there wouldn't be a violent response if the police didn't act like they were spoiling for a fight. The other story I have heard is that most of the violence is being imported from outside of Ferguson but the residents of Ferguson are being punished for it. admittedly some of the stories coming out of this sound like the local law enforcement was poorly prepared and really did not have a plan in place for dealing with this. but the basis of the argument is that the police should stop pushing people into violent outbursts.

OTOH as I noted in my previous post... there is no such thing as an unarmed person. None of us were there. We don't know what actually happened. One story is that the kid essentially told the cop to "F Off" and the cop responded by trying to use force. at that point there maybe a basis to say the officer was placing the young man under arrest. Brown then pushed away from the officer and was resisting arrest at that point. The officer drew his gun and Brown charged him at some point. That is when Brown was shot several times. This is not the official version that the media is telling us.

My main point is that we don't know the whole story yet. We may never know. The investigation is not completed. There has been no due process. And yet the media and a lot of others are rushing to judgment and saying "he gunned him down like a dog in the street because he was a young black man"

So, on the face of it the two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive. But the devil is in the details.

[SciFiFisher]

I know of a case where an army deserter in Vietnam was shot over 20 times while fleeing with a stolen air force jeep. The deserter lived. According to the doctors who treated him he was so high on drugs that his body didn't know it had been shot and it never went into shock.

Marines: 1 shot, 1 kill
Army: 20 shots, yeah he's pretty beat up, but he'd live.

I now have another case to prove that the Army can't shoot for shit!

Hell, the 20 times he was shot were just the ones that hit him. Gawd Knows how many bullets the Air Force SP's and the Army MP's fired at the idjit before he stopped.

But in their defense they were chasing a moving jeep while shooting at him from moving jeeps. They figure they got him those 20 times when he ran out into a rice paddy and started driving in circles. So, they drove around him in a bigger circle and just kept shooting until his stolen jeep stopped.

[Sigma_Orionis]

So, on the face of it the two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive. But the devil is in the details.

Yeah, Yeah Yeah, the Egyptians are demanding you evil imperialist capitalist show restraint

[SciFiFisher]

So, on the face of it the two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive. But the devil is in the details.

Yeah, Yeah Yeah, the Egyptians are demanding you evil imperialist capitalist show restraint

Frankly I am amazed they could say that with a straight face. Or without dying from the amount of hypocrisy they are choking down.

[Sigma_Orionis]

According to the article I posted, Iran and China joined the chorus, your moral standing is weakening by the minute

Iran added its voice to the criticism, with Majid Takht-Ravanchi, the deputy foreign minister for European and American Affairs, saying the unrest was a sign of "the phenomenon of racism" in the West.

Meanwhile Chinese state news agency Xinhua said that despite the US playing the role of an international human rights defender, the clashes showed "there is still much room for improvement at home".

"Obviously, what the United States needs to do is to concentrate on solving its own problems rather than always pointing fingers at others," the Xinhua editorial added.

[FZR1KG]

Just an observation but, it's not who tells you something that makes it legitimate or not, it's what truth there is in what is said.
Dismissing the comment based on who made it is not right. Dismiss it on its own grounds.

Having said that, yes they are hypocrites. Isn't the USA as well?
For that matter, aren't most countries.
It's not money that runs the world, it's the circulation of hypocrisy.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Just wait till Russia pitches in......

[Sigma_Orionis]

they just did

And in Russia, which is suffering under the brunt of US sanctions, a state-owned paper was eager to call attention to the situation.

"Though the US portrays itself as a country of equal opportunities, it is too early to talk about the victory over racism and segregation there," writes Igor Dunayevskiy for Rossiskaya Gazeta.

And popular pro-Kremlin tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda says bluntly, "Not only are the police acting as the US Army does in Iraq (simply put, like occupation forces), but it is this model that the US exports to countries that seek help... in reforming their interior ministries." The paper cites US involvement in Georgia under Saakashvili

[Sigma_Orionis]

judging from this NYTimes Article, it seems the St. Louis Police handled things differently.

On Wednesday night, the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department released a cellphone video taken by a witness showing the shooting of a black man by the police on Tuesday. In contrast to the slow reaction by officials in Ferguson to the shooting of Mr. Brown, Sam Dotson, the police chief in St. Louis, rushed to the scene of the shooting to provide information to the public and try to prevent the episode from fueling tensions in the community.

Chief Dotson said that two officers were confronted by a 25-year-old man, Kajieme Powell, who was behaving “erratically” and brandishing a knife. The officers repeatedly warned, “Stop, drop the knife,” but Mr. Powell refused, Chief Dotson said. When Mr. Powell got within three or four feet of the officers, the chief said, they shot and killed him.

Chief Dotson has said that the video taken by the bystander confirmed the Police Department’s version of events. Although the video showed the man walking toward the officers and saying, “Shoot me now,” it was unclear whether the knife was raised when he was shot. At least 12 shots can be heard in the video.

Chief Dotson said the police released the video in the interest of transparency.

“I don’t think any of us can deny that the tension, not only in St. Louis but around the country and the world because of the activity in Ferguson over the last 10 or 12 days, certainly has led to us making sure that we got this right,” he said.

[SciFiFisher]

judging from this NYTimes Article, it seems the St. Louis Police handled things differently.

On Wednesday night, the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department released a cellphone video taken by a witness showing the shooting of a black man by the police on Tuesday. In contrast to the slow reaction by officials in Ferguson to the shooting of Mr. Brown, Sam Dotson, the police chief in St. Louis, rushed to the scene of the shooting to provide information to the public and try to prevent the episode from fueling tensions in the community.

Chief Dotson said that two officers were confronted by a 25-year-old man, Kajieme Powell, who was behaving “erratically” and brandishing a knife. The officers repeatedly warned, “Stop, drop the knife,” but Mr. Powell refused, Chief Dotson said. When Mr. Powell got within three or four feet of the officers, the chief said, they shot and killed him.

Chief Dotson has said that the video taken by the bystander confirmed the Police Department’s version of events. Although the video showed the man walking toward the officers and saying, “Shoot me now,” it was unclear whether the knife was raised when he was shot. At least 12 shots can be heard in the video.

Chief Dotson said the police released the video in the interest of transparency.

“I don’t think any of us can deny that the tension, not only in St. Louis but around the country and the world because of the activity in Ferguson over the last 10 or 12 days, certainly has led to us making sure that we got this right,” he said.

It also helps that the "victim" was armed and clearly approaching the police with the knife. Kind of hard to claim the neo-Nazi jackbooted police thugs gunned down an unarmed man when he is carrying a knife and shouting "shoot me".