Ferguson

[SciFiFisher]

So, when push comes to shove, yer a bunch of whiny pinko commie liberal bleeding hearts

Rutherford Hayes in 1878
[Imitating Zee pretending to be Fran Drescher]
OMG!, the Southern States are mad at us because we won the war and occupied them!. Let's appease them by promising no to ever ever ever again use the Armed Forces internally, and let's call it the "Jumping Jim Crow" act. No, wait, we used that one already. How about the "Sore Losers" act? hmmm no, they might dislike us in the future for that and when one of our politicians decides to do a "Southern Strategy" they'll try to get even by attempting to put religious fanatics in the White House... I know! I know!, let's call it the "Posse Comitatus" Act, it has a nice half-Redneck, half-Learned ring to it, a perfect description of US!.

Careful there Cabana Slim. US rednecks are a might sensitive about being made fun of. We know darn well y'all ain't laughing with us.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Oh my, I've touched a sensitive subject!. I'm sorry Massa Gringo, this lowly poor oppressed latino is sorry he stepped on your delicate toes, please don't let your Multinationals take all of our oil, our poor populace needs the heating oil for our cold harsh winters


PD I'll go right back to digging the pool.....

[FZR1KG]

Don't be insulting the South.
They are the people that gave the world this: Fried Ham song
The wife sang this at girl scouts.

I guess the boy scouts sang about ribs and fries???

[Sigma_Orionis]

Or maybe Fried Chicken and Grits?

[SciFiFisher]

Or maybe Fried Chicken and Grits?

and redeye gravy.

[FZR1KG]

I do have to admit that in the South they know how to cook.
Even the KFC is fantastic. Full of flavour.

[SciFiFisher]

I do have to admit that in the South they know how to cook.
Even the KFC is fantastic. Full of flavour.

KFC adapted thier menu to fit regional tastes. At some of them you can actually get beans and rice.

[Yosh]

I was in Boy Scouts....we didn't sing that shit.

[Sigma_Orionis]

You don't count, yer a Yankee

[SciFi Chick]

New perspectives on the Ferguson shooting.

I definitely think this cop crossed a line. No matter how it started, the way he finished it is murder. I wonder if he'll even be prosecuted.

[code monkey]

New perspectives on the Ferguson shooting.

I definitely think this cop crossed a line. No matter how it started, the way he finished it is murder. I wonder if he'll even be prosecuted.

i don't wonder. i expect to see it about the same time the sun rises in the west.

[Rommie]

New perspectives on the Ferguson shooting.

I definitely think this cop crossed a line. No matter how it started, the way he finished it is murder. I wonder if he'll even be prosecuted.

i don't wonder. i expect to see it about the same time the sun rises in the west.

That or if and when it does happen it will be years from now when everyone will have forgotten all about it.

[SciFi Chick]

This is truly beyond the pale.

I'm so glad they fired this moron and he's been brought up on charges. I'm also happy that he can't shoot for shit, but it's a bit concerning that a police officer can't aim any better than that... or is it? This is just too fucked up.

Here's a news article about the incident.

Really glad I'm white, as bad as that sounds. And some of the comments on that article... no words.

[Cyborg Girl]

So a mostly white jury let the officer off the hook, and now people are wondering why the protests have turned into riots. Gee willikers, who'd have thunk!

Yeah, I'm just completely disgusted right now. I'd thought we'd been making progress, you know?

[Swift]

So a mostly white jury let the officer off the hook, and now people are wondering why the protests have turned into riots. Gee willikers, who'd have thunk!

Yeah, I'm just completely disgusted right now. I'd thought we'd been making progress, you know?

I suspect you are disgusted at different things than I am.

And yes, this is going to be kind of ranty, and no it isn't mostly aimed at you GJ.

I hadn't heard anything about the racial make-up of the jury, but frankly, I don't think it matters. I actually think it is more than a little irresponsible for everyone to second guess the grand jury just because the outcome didn't match what they hoped it would be. The grand jury process isn't a popularity contest; the fact that they took months to come to their decision would seem to say it wasn't just a superficial examination and it wasn't just a vote along racial lines. They spent months looking at the evidence, and that tends to weigh more with me than your average man on the street who spent five minutes total watching CNN.

And I'm sorry, but I don't care how upset you were at the decision, but riots and looting and destroying the businesses of your neighbors is never the answer. A lot of my sympathy for your cause went up in those flames. It is stupid and self-destructive and it feeds the racist image you are trying to dispel.

Sure, there are some serious racial problems and police problems and violence problems and gun problems in this country and none of this is going to help solve any of them.

[Cyborg Girl]

Swift, I don't like riots either. But... context. Someone was murdered, which is a whole different order of wrong than property destruction.

Edit: re this not helping, I agree! But it can kind of be expected when people, any people, are pushed over the edge. And see also the Stonewall Riots.

[brite]

Swift, from what I understand, there was an information dump on the grand jury. They were given everything, including testimony from Mr Wilson, and no input from the prosecutor on how to proceed. There were complaints about the prosecutor being prejudiced to begin with.

I listened to his statement, last night. He blamed everyone, including the neighborhood dog (well... he may have left the dog out of it) for Michael Brown’s death, but not Mr Wilson. And no one thought to ask how far Mr Wilson was from Mr Brown, when the fatal shot was fired. And after having left the body out in the summer sun for 4.5 hours, some forensic evidence is going to degrade.

Another problem that I had was why make the announcement so late at night? This was not handled correctly.

[Swift]

Swift, I don't like riots either. But... context. Someone was murdered, which is a whole different order of wrong than property destruction.

Edit: re this not helping, I agree! But it can kind of be expected when people, any people, are pushed over the edge. And see also the Stonewall Riots.

I'm sorry, but bull to both. Murder is no excuse. And maybe it is kind of expected, but I have pretty low expectations of people. It would be nice for people to rise above expectations.

Should white policemen expect young black man running from them are guilty of somthing or are dangerous? Or are some expectations acceptable and others aren't?

The rioting and looting are just reenforcing the racist opinions. To say they are "counterproductive" is a vast understatement.

If you (not you GJ, "you" the general population) want to have an adult conversation about these problems, act like an adult.

[SciFiFisher]

Swift, I don't like riots either. But... context. Someone was murdered, which is a whole different order of wrong than property destruction.

I realize that you have a strong opinion about this. But, the grand jury disagreed with you. If it had been a case of murder then the grand jury would have indicted officer Wilson for murder.

And I fully agree with Swift. When people start rioting and descend into anarchy they lose the right to claim it's about justice.

[Cyborg Girl]

Fisher: people can be motivated by justice while doing destructive things. And juries are not infallable; especially IMO when they come loaded with people from a specific background, i.e. they're not diverse.

And yeah, I have very strong feelings on the matter: I feel very strongly that rioting is the wrong thing to do. But a) I'm biased as hell myself; b) I'm not there on the scene; c) a guy younger than me was shot six times for no good reason; and d) these people have been trodden on ad infinitum and shown they have no effective legal recourse.

(Also, c.f. again the Stonewall Riots. Sometimes rioting makes you a target, other times it proves you're not an easy one.)

Also e) crowds of mostly white college students have rioted over stupid things like the Red Sox losing, and that barely qualifies as news.

[Swift]

Fisher: people can be motivated by justice while doing destructive things.

People can also use the excuse and cover of an event like this to commit criminal acts, like looting. Short of questioning individuals, I suspect neither one of us knows the motivations of the many people involved, but probably both groups (the angry and the thieving) are represented.

[geonuc]

GJ, why are you so convinced of the circumstances that you state that 'someone was murdered'? Do you have special insight that the grand jury did not?

What about the racial makeup of the grand jury concerns you? It was 25% black and from what I've read, that is about the same as in the county as a whole. Were they supposed to stack the grand jury with more black people?

[Rommie]

brite, apparently the reason for the decision to be announced so late was so kids would already be home from school and stuff like that- ie minimal disruptions as possible for the community as there were likely to be riots regardless of what happened. (I mean, people who try to burn down and loot a Walgreens probably already had the idea to do so.) Mind, I agree with swift when it comes to the rioters, and will point out people are known to behave this way when the opportunity presents itself regardless of race- a few years back in the UK a student protest over tuition fees devolved into mass riots/looting as people decided it was a perfect opportunity to get a new TV.

I'm of the opinion here that I really didn't follow the grand jury proceedings enough to comment about what was said, not said, but my understanding is the threshold is far lower when it comes to handing someone an indictment over an actual conviction in a trial setting (FWIS legal team can comment on the nuances here). So if it didn't go through at this stage, the odds of the guy actually getting convicted is pretty much nil based on the evidence.

We'll never quite know the circumstances of what happened that night. But that still doesn't change the initial outrage I had about the entire thing, which wasn't nessecarily about the case itself so much as the police response to the protesters in the city (who were quite peaceful then in comparison to what happened after the grand jury details were announced, I should note!).

[geonuc]

Yes, the grand jury is only tasked to determine if there is probable cause to support an indictment. In other words, is there any credible and admissible evidence that could lead a jury to convict. A far lower bar than a conviction. This is a function that the district attorney/states attorney/US attorney performs in lesser cases. Grand juries handle the big stuff in most jurisdictions.

[geonuc]

The source of any outrage I may have centers around the prosecutor. I think he should have recused himself and let an assistant handle the case. But then I have a very low opinion of prosecutors in general. Too many of them seem to be concerned with their image, their conviction record or their chances of getting elected to higher office than they are of seeing justice done. Just look at all the instances where DNA evidence later completely exonerates a felon and the prosecutor still won't budge. Here, if I read it right, the prosecutor's father was a cop murdered by a black man. If true, he's not unbiased and should have stepped aside, particularly after the case went viral.

I'm also quite disappointed in how the Ferguson police department has handled the situation.