And now for something completely different

[Cyborg Girl]

An opinion piece on

"How the academic Left created Donald Trump"

First thing: it's by R. Scott Bakker. Yeah, the guy who wrote the traumatic SF novel I complained about. His novels may be unreadable for me, but this actually is interesting and makes sense.

Second thing: yes, it makes sense! To me at least. I don't know how the basic assumptions measure out, re: Internet and boundaries and stuff, but it does seem to offer some insight into where Trump voters get their ideas. And maybe, God willing, some tactics for persuading the less die-hard ones that they're wrong.

(Pessimism about human behavior is a weird place to draw hope from, but hey, why not.)

[geonuc]

What tactics, exactly?

The idea that the internet has changed the landscape of discourse is not new. We have quippy memes floating about every day on the topic, how people can find 'evidence' and support for their lunacy, where before they could not. Why is this completely different?

[SciFi Chick]

Why is this completely different?

I think it's the idea that the left is responsible for the rise of Drumpf rather than the right.

[Sigma_Orionis]

If the left created Donald Trump, it was because in the late 60s and early 70s it showed that a temper tantrum was useful in getting one's way. The very legitimate concern about the Johnson Administration's handling of the Vietnam War, and the underlying racial tensions, that unfortunately exist when one has to mandate equality by decree (no Virginia, I don't know what else they could have done instead, I am just acknowledging that it is a undesirable side effect) Were the excuses used by the left's lunatic fringe to gain some sort of legitimacy. This showed the right that they could do the same, only this time they did it on purpose, naively thinking they could harness its momentum without it exploding in their faces. And guess what happened?

[Cyborg Girl]

@geonuc

The idea of the Internet enabling groupthink isn't new to me. What's new (to me) is the idea that Internet-mediated groupthink would have a large effect on mainstream politics.

@SFC

Honestly, my own perspective is that you can't pin it all on one factor.

e.g. FOX News is a recent thing. Likewise the Bush administration's extensive efforts to justify torture. And the US has a lot of lingering racial hate, and no federal laws about hate speech. We've been trending this way at least since 9/11 IMO.

But, I won't discount that the left may have played a role through arrogance and bad PR.

@Sigma

That is... an interesting perspective. Can you link me to any articles/essays you think are relevant, re: far-left extremism in the US at the time? I'm interested in how this might feed into things now, but I wasn't alive during the 60s/70s.

[Sigma_Orionis]

@Sigma

That is... an interesting perspective. Can you link me to any articles/essays you think are relevant, re: far-left extremism in the US at the time? I'm interested in how this might feed into things now, but I wasn't alive during the 60s/70s.

You can start here: 1968 Democratic National Convention

This might also help Protests of 1968

[Cyborg Girl]

Thank you! *reads*

[Cyborg Girl]

Okay, reading the 1968 DNC summary... Maybe I'm just biased, but the protests sound like pretty typical response to authoritarian kookery in a democratic country. And most of the violence seems to have started with police openly beating people.

Basically it reads like the news right now, but with even more police brutality, and Democrats being even more hawkish. I don't see a far-left tantrum; I see ordinary people getting repeatedly brutalized, until they lose their cool and hit back.

[Sigma_Orionis]

That was the start. afterwards there were left-bullcrap spewing terrorist groups causing all sorts of mayhem in Europe. Black September and Munich? the Baader-Meinhof Gang? How do you think Carlos "The Jackal" got his fame? just to mention a couple of examples And some in the US too, google "Symbiotic Liberation Army" for example. or "Patty Hearst". The public dislike in the US against anyone in uniform was so bad that at least one Congressional Medal of Honor investing had to be done in a private ceremony for fear of the backlash.

I NEVER claimed that there weren't legitimate concerns. Just that the lunatic fringe of the left in those days took advantage of them. And let's remember, the Cold War was quite healthy in those days too, at least of some of those groups were being encouraged and funded by the Soviet Union.

[geonuc]

*Symbionese

[Sigma_Orionis]

I could never get it right

[Cyborg Girl]

Ah, the Symbionese idiots, right. Sorry, I thought you were talking about the protestors.

I hadn't realized lefty terrorism was so common back then.

[SciFiFisher]

If the left created Donald Trump, it was because in the late 60s and early 70s it showed that a temper tantrum was useful in getting one's way. The very legitimate concern about the Johnson Administration's handling of the Vietnam War, and the underlying racial tensions, that unfortunately exist when one has to mandate equality by decree (no Virginia, I don't know what else they could have done instead, I am just acknowledging that it is a undesirable side effect) Were the excuses used by the left's lunatic fringe to gain some sort of legitimacy. This showed the right that they could do the same, only this time they did it on purpose, naively thinking they could harness its momentum without it exploding in their faces. And guess what happened?

Frankenstein is what. Of course, it appears that the townspeople are hell bent on helping the monster destroy the town in this analogy.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Well, let's hope that come November, things are quiet enough to enjoy a little Schadenfreude

[SciFiFisher]

Okay, reading the 1968 DNC summary... Maybe I'm just biased, but the protests sound like pretty typical response to authoritarian kookery in a democratic country. And most of the violence seems to have started with police openly beating people.

Basically it reads like the news right now, but with even more police brutality, and Democrats being even more hawkish. I don't see a far-left tantrum; I see ordinary people getting repeatedly brutalized, until they lose their cool and hit back.

Oh? Like having Newspapers refuse to print stories about North Vietnamese Genocide against the Hmong. While playing up the heartwarming story of Treason by Jane Fonda as she gave aid and support to sworn enemies of a democratically elected government in South Vietnam and the U.S.?

Or perhaps we should discuss the fun and charming welcome home protocol that liberal protestors engaged in when our troops would come home from Vietnam? I am sure that somehow a soldier who was doing his duty really deserved to be spit on and called a baby killer when he got off the plane or boat that brought him home.

I think Sigma covered some of the other left leaning proclivities already.