USA Election Day 2016

[Sigma_Orionis]

If you don't mind the greasy furriner I think you are ALL missing the point.

I'm not going to discuss if the US is an Oligarchy or not. Why? not relevant. Why isn't it relevant? Show me ONE government that it's not. All elected governments are as subject to special interests with deep pockets as any other. Although I have to admit that the scale of the "Lobbying Industry" in the US makes me dizzy. Hell, I'm still trying to digest the whole thing about K Street. Entrenched racism? check. Remember the treatment of Aborigines in Australia. As vendic once commented, EVERYONE looks the other way till the shit hits the fan and then there's a lot of hand wringing till it dies down. Mistreatment of minorities? The UK, not only they did use Australian Aborigines as test subjects for Nuclear Fallout, up till 50 years ago, you could get arrested for being gay. There's not only the extreme case of Alan Turing, there's the case of Arthur C. Clarke, whom LEFT the UK because of the pitfalls of being a gay man there. Those two examples are the closest to the US. But the rest of Europe has plenty of dirty laundry and so do most Asian, and Latin American governments. And let's just not talk about Africa: the whole continent (yes Virginia, with the eager help of European Powers) is built on racial/tribal conflict. The only ones that "could" claim some sort of high ground are Scandinavian countries. However, the overwhelming majority are people of the same creed, race and (mostly) political inclination. So, I think that the majority in those countries has never felt threatened enough to act systematically against minorities.

Now IMHO what makes the US FEDERAL Government such a particular case:

Size: Countries with similar size and population of the US are China and Russia, China is a one party autocracy. Russia is Banana Republic with Nuclear Weapons.

Canada and Australia have large territories but population wise they have respectively 35 million and 23 Million people, so IMHO the problems are a LOT different because of their relatively low populations.

So: SO FAR, it seems that the only way to have a central government in a large country with a large population, that it's not an outright dictatorship seems to be the way the US did it.

Central Government. What makes the US unique is that the Central government is weaker by design than in other countries and MUCH less popular as well. The whole thing seems made with emphasis on the states.

The European Union is trying a somewhat similar approach with results that have been LESS than stellar. Setting up an actual Central Government at the European Continental level, has, so far been a failure.

I remember reading about a poll that said that one of the top fears of the people of the US is government corruption. Well, IMHO it must be government corruption at the FEDERAL level. Look at the mess in Flint, Michigan and that was all at the STATE level. Most people didn't even bat an eye.

It looks from here that the strategy from the Pubs was to work the states to get to the US Federal Government. They first got the state assemblies and governors, then they gerrymandered their way into the House, and then they worked their way into the federal government. What's the usual campaign "Dog Whistle" the Republicans use to let the racists or the evangelicals do their thing? "STATES RIGHTS", 'nuff said.

HALF THE COUNTRY DOESN'T VOTE: Hell, the only thing I can say about that one is that: things have been quite cozy for a lot of people in the US for a long time if they can't be bothered to vote (yes I know, probably those are the ones that complain about the federal government the most)

So, at this point, a large number of your check and balances are disabled. The three federal powers, and a large number of state governorships and legislatures are under the control of some of the scariest nutjobs I've seen in my entire life.

You know what checks and balances you have left? the professionalism (or if you prefer the institutional inertia) of your bureaucrats, particularly at the FEDERAL level.

Compared to our institutions, yours work pretty well, particularly given the size and complexity of your country. In ours it took several years and SEVERAL events to allow Chavez and his Cronies to destroy them and replace them with yes men.

So, once again what does the greasy furriner (and one that based how it went on his country doesn't have much sympathy for the left in general) think the US Left should do?

A) DON'T BEHAVE LIKE SPOILED BRATS

- That means that peaceful protests are of course very much a constitutional right (even in a Banana Republic like mine). But the organizers will have to make their damnedest to make sure there are no violent incidents. Yup it's hard but if the opposition down here (whom is not particularly smart. And remember, our government has an itchy finger on the guns) can do it, So can you.

- Last night a picture that allegedly was made by Breitbart where in a demonstration someone held a banner that said "Rape Melania" made the rounds on social media. It's not known if it really was made up by Breitbart or if it really happened. But if it actually happened, that just makes the left look just like the right and makes those voters that, as the article Rommie posted says bought "The Cinemax Deal" feel better by saying "So I voted for a platform that included racism and nutjobs, well the other side ain't much better, it's not my fault!". Again the organizers of those protests must work very hard for that not to happen.

The only checks and balances left are the professionalism of your bureaucrats. So how to keep them? It took three events here for Chavez to destroy our institutions:

1) The Quasi Coup of 2002
2) The General Strike of 2002/2003
3) The Legislative Elections of 2004/2005, where the opposition refused to participate, allowing Chavez to take absolute control of the Legislative Assembly

The first one is highly unlikely to happen. But, if rumors are true it was AFTER that when Chavez's most extreme cronies became relevant. So THAT doesn't need to happen in the US because the nutjobs are all very relevant right now.

The second one is also unlikely (but less so) because organizing an effort like that in the US would probably be quite hard. BUT, the fact that it happened allowed Chavez to take absolute control on one of our most critical points. Foreign Currency Exchange (remember in this country, most finished goods have always been imported) So, if a similar event allowed the nutjobs to fill the mid/low level bureaucracy of a particularly sensitive area of the executive with their cronies, THAT would be a much bigger disaster than the current one.

The third one is one that is more likely, particularly at the state level. DON'T LET THAT HAPPEN.

IF the left starts behaving like spoiled brats, it puts the focus on them, not the nutjobs. Assuming there's any credibility left in the pre-election polls. Trump's ratings went sharply down when the spotlight was on him, Not on Hillary. And if you ask me, the leadership of the US Democratic Party knows this. They are making themselves scarce, letting the spotlight on Trump. There's already talk that Trump is flip-flopping on parts of Obamacare. That the wall will be at first a "fence", that his surrogates are planning on payback to the Republican's who didn't back Trump, which IMHO explains the reports that he's padding his team with the people he claimed he was going to get rid of: "Lobbyists", probably most of the Republican "Apparatchiks" won't work with him, because even the opportunists that now suddenly discovered their loyalty to Trump will be kicked of the reservation out of spite. If reports are true, THEY didn't think they'd win either. So a lot of the groundwork to take over has to be done very fast and probably very sloppily. AND most importantly, the promise that would buy Trump time while the base discovered that Manufacturing jobs will NOT be coming back (as Fisher already said), Infrastructure spending, has already been dismissed by Congress. THAT promise could allow Trump to consolidate his base early. Well, it looks like it ain't going to happen. What did Pelosi do? she said "We'd be happy to vote for an infrastructure bill". VERY smart Move.

Again, it has to be stressed. Whatever kind of government system the US is, it starts at the state level. the Central Government is a consequence not a cause. If the US Left wants to gain enough power to get anything done, it will have to work the states, then the legislature and then the Federal Executive

So this "greasy furriner"'s three point plan would be:

- Keep Calm
- "Fish on Troubled Waters"
- Work the States.

Why do I stick my nose on this? considering the huge sway the US has on international politics, that the fact that the US Executive has much more discretionary control over foreign than over domestic policies, that right now all that is going to be handed over to a Moron who can't control his twitter feed, let alone his dick, AND on top of that his backup behaves like he's that US president from John Carpenter's "Escape from LA" scares the living crap out of me.

As usual, edited for clarity and spelling

[Cyborg Girl]

Thanks very much, Sigma. It's helpful to see an outsider's view, from someone already used to authoritarianism.

My concern at the moment is whether this stay at Chavez/Putin levels, or spiral into fullblown disaster dictatorship a la Hitler. I think the latter is more likely than you think; if the Trump Administration tries to declare martial law, I expect a Republican congress to go right along with it. (A few Democrats will probably go along as well.)

Also there's the issue of mass surveillance; PATRIOT Act and suchlike allowing indefinite imprisonment without charges; the President being able to direct deportation efforts, as Pres. Obama did extensively; the President being able to order assassinations of US citizens (c.f. drone strikes); the FBI apparently being full of Trumpists... And on top of all that, Trump's alt-right fans are a bunch of sadistic creeps, who have already repeatedly engaged in violence against the opposition. (A typical mode of operation seems to involve bullying people into committing suicide.)

Also, re protests and violence - in the US, police have a history of attacking protesters without provocation, followed by the media blaming the protesters for whatever ensues. Likewise, they could always use agents provocateur. Or carry out a false flag operation of some kind. With Trump's support base, they wouldn't even need the cooperation of intelligence people; they could just get some skinheads to leave a bomb somewhere, and blame lefties/Muslims/etc.

Basically, I'm not convinced that professionalism would be much of a barrier. The Trump Administration's powers to persecute the opposition are vast, and mostly quite legal now. Unlike Obama, or even Bush, Trump has no professional sense of respect; I think he would be quite willing to imprison political opponents en mass, as he has repeatedly said he'd do to Clinton. Congressional Republicans have at this point made it clear that they either don't care, and are naked slaves to power; or are religious zealots who want people like me deported and/or dead.

I do have hope that the military, and maybe defense and intelligence people, would resist attempts to abuse their power. But it's not much hope. To be extremely blunt, I am still getting used to the idea that I and my family may not survive this.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Thanks very much, Sigma. It's helpful to see an outsider's view, from someone already used to authoritarianism.

My concern at the moment is whether this stay at Chavez/Putin levels, or spiral into fullblown disaster dictatorship a la Hitler. I think the latter is more likely than you think; if the Trump Administration tries to declare martial law, I expect a Republican congress to go right along with it. (A few Democrats will probably go along as well.)

Also there's the issue of mass surveillance; PATRIOT Act and suchlike allowing indefinite imprisonment without charges; the President being able to direct deportation efforts, as Pres. Obama did extensively; the President being able to order assassinations of US citizens (c.f. drone strikes); the FBI apparently being full of Trumpists... And on top of all that, Trump's alt-right fans are a bunch of sadistic creeps, who have already repeatedly engaged in violence against the opposition. (A typical mode of operation seems to involve bullying people into committing suicide.)

Also, re protests and violence - in the US, police have a history of attacking protesters without provocation, followed by the media blaming the protesters for whatever ensues. Likewise, they could always use agents provocateur. Or carry out a false flag operation of some kind. With Trump's support base, they wouldn't even need the cooperation of intelligence people; they could just get some skinheads to leave a bomb somewhere, and blame lefties/Muslims/etc.

Basically, I'm not convinced that professionalism would be much of a barrier. The Trump Administration's powers to persecute the opposition are vast, and mostly quite legal now. Unlike Obama, or even Bush, Trump has no professional sense of respect; I think he would be quite willing to imprison political opponents en mass, as he has repeatedly said he'd do to Clinton. Congressional Republicans have at this point made it clear that they either don't care, and are naked slaves to power; or are religious zealots who want people like me deported and/or dead.

I do have hope that the military, and maybe defense and intelligence people, would resist attempts to abuse their power. But it's not much hope. To be extremely blunt, I am still getting used to the idea that I and my family may not survive this.

I certainly hope that it doesn't get as far as a Chavez/Putin banana republic. As I said, I think several events would have to happen first. Some more likely than others.

I am not saying that "professionalism" is a good check, or even a reliable one. I am saying that's the closest thing to a check you have right now, so take care of it, ie. don't give the nutjobs any excuse to destroy it.

For all its vast resources, I don't think the US Federal government has the apparatus to set up a police state out of whole cloth in such a vast area. It takes a time and a lot of resources. Just ask the Soviets. The thing is NOT to give them the time to do so if those are their actual intentions

As for your Law Enforcement and Military personnel. I suggest you look around. Despite the nutjobs like General Flynn and the trigger happy ones that COULD (not WILL) go rogue at things like demonstrations. I am of the opinion that the vast majority of them are people like Fisher, or Yosh or even like geonuc. THEIR oath (particularly the military) is to THE CONSTITUTION of the US, not whomever is in charge. EVEN here the armed forces are wary of shooting at protesters, the police, despite it all, go out of their way to avoid something like that. Why? in our case, international condemnation. In YOUR case, as Yosh and Fisher have pointed out repeatedly, THEY ARE NOT DRONES. Again, to build a a security apparatus like that takes TIME and RESOURCES. My opinion of your nutjobs isn't much different than yours. But keep in mind your best defense right now is NOT to give them time to consolidate into the bureaucracy of the US Government.

[Cyborg Girl]

Huh. Thanks, I guess. Weirdly, I do not think I have anywhere near your trust in human decency.

OTOH, have you seen Van Jones' opinions on this?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... ton-racism

He's rather more collected. Not sure how much I agree with him, though I do like that he brings in empathy re: US foreign policy.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I don't usually read stuff at Motherjones, I'll check out.

I am nobody to tell you whether you should trust or not on the decency of those who form the middle/low layers of the US government. But, based on what I've seen of most of Yosh's friends on social networks(many of them centrists or leaning to the right who also are current or retired members of your Armed Forces and government) I'd give them more credit than you. Since Fisher and geonuc use those same channels in the same way I do (to post smart-ass stuff and in geonuc's case stuff about food) I can't talk about their friends.

Also: remember that our resident "Pinko-Commie-Liberal" is ALSO a US Armed Forces veteran.


edited for clarity

[Cyborg Girl]

Yes, I'll give you that. OTOH... Not sure about the armed forces, but there are plenty of "nice" racists among the police. And historical Fascist regimes seem to have carried out oppression as much through peer pressure and fear of retribution as through encouraging sadism.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Yes, I'll give you that. OTOH... Not sure about the armed forces, but there are plenty of "nice" racists among the police. And historical Fascist regimes seem to have carried out oppression as much through peer pressure and fear of retribution as through encouraging sadism.

I am not so sure. I think that despite it all a lot of them really thought they're doing their best to preserve their country. Let's say that due to some event, the new US government talks about revoking your First Amendment. it still takes more political power than what they have right now. I am not so sure that a lot of members of Law Enforcement would go along. Even then, ASSUMING that those people you think are "nice racists" agree to enforcing something like that DON'T GIVE THEM the opportunity.

Do you know what really riled up moderates who didn't really back Chavez here back in 2002-2005? calls for riots and armed response by surrogates of the opposition. I SAW THAT MYSELF.

Re: Foreign Policy. Foreign Policy is, for better or worse, secondary to the majority of the people of the US. Can't hardly blame them though. The huge international footprint the US has, has benefited the US greatly, but most people there don't know it. The consequences of that huge footprint in the world are IMHO, for all its screwups, positive. But this is an internal US matter that VERY unfortunately has global effects. So if the left want's to fix this mess, it SHOULD downplay its effects on the rest of the world, As infuriating as that may be.

[Cyborg Girl]

Just FWIW, I'm 100% with you on not calling for riots and armed response. Problem there is more that, historically, police have not needed a real excuse to get violent with protesters.

Foreign policy... I don't know. I realize that a lot of things on that level involve trying to salvage the most from an awful situation. (Something that Trump clearly doesn't understand at all.) OTOH, it seems to me like too much emphasis on Doing What Needs To Be Done can lead to difficulty thinking outside that box of military intervention and abstraction of civilian lives.

Also, I'm gonna post this:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016 ... ified.html

I'll grant that some of the reactions from the US Jewish community may come from shock - "Hey, what happened to our white privilege?!" - but to a lot of us, this is all looking quite disturbingly familiar.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Just FWIW, I'm 100% with you on not calling for riots and armed response. Problem there is more that, historically, police have not needed a real excuse to get violent with protesters.

On peaceful protests with the media all over them? really? Make sure ALL those street demonstrations have a lot of Media Coverage, something that is not all that hard these days is it? THAT works here.

The nutjobs will not change their minds, and I'm sure plenty will try to doctor the footage of demonstrations. HOWEVER it's not them for whom those protests should appeal. So if well documented, their doctoring should not help much.

Foreign policy... I don't know. I realize that a lot of things on that level involve trying to salvage the most from an awful situation. (Something that Trump clearly doesn't understand at all.) OTOH, it seems to me like too much emphasis on Doing What Needs To Be Done can lead to difficulty thinking outside that box of military intervention and abstraction of civilian lives.

Right now, who knows. All we know is that Trump was to play nice with the Russkies. HOWEVER if the Russkies feel they now have a free hand on the Baltic Republics and Trump decides NOT to enforce the article 5 of NATO......

Also, I'm gonna post this:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016 ... ified.html

I'll grant that some of the reactions from the US Jewish community may come from shock - "Hey, what happened to our white privilege?!" - but to a lot of us, this is all looking quite disturbingly familiar.

I know, Jews had the "very questionable privilege" of being the first minority that faced extermination in modern times. And that man is gay as well, It's understandable to be afraid. On the plus side, distasteful as it sounds, Ashkenazi Jews look very similar to what the average "privileged whites" look like. So I am sure that the application of Godwin's Law is not going to be an issue here. Again, the thing is NOT to let the nutjobs destroy your institutions, that means, RIGHT NOW, working public opinion without panicking. Yes. the man's Grandmother said "don't worry this can't happen here". But nobody in their right mind, is saying that. The ones I hear say "We HAVE to make sure THAT WON'T happen here".

[Sigma_Orionis]

One more thing.

Look at this very Jewish Economist. Doing his best to avoid panicking.

Yes, Paul Krugman has less to worry than the average joe. He's affluent and a member of the NYC Elite. Yet, read this:

It’s going to be a long time in the wilderness, and it’s going to be awful. If I sound calm and philosophical, I’m not — like everyone who cares, I’m frazzled, sleepless, depressed. But we need to be stalwart

[Cyborg Girl]

Hey, I also follow Krugman. I will note that his opinion may be influenced, at least somewhat, by the vast amount of anti-Semitic hate spam that he receives every day on Twitter.

Re Ashkenazi Jews, yes, that's what I meant with the "white privilege" quip. This time around I think we're pretty far down the hit list, as a group, though not necessarily off it entirely. But more vulnerable groups could really be fucked over, and I don't want to stand by and let that happen.

BTW, I'd spare some rage for Jewish people who kept supporting the far right, out of supposed loyalty to Israel. But right now, I'm too full of nausea and emptiness to feel much in the way of anger.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Hey, I also follow Krugman. I will note that his opinion may be influenced, at least somewhat, by the vast amount of anti-Semitic hate spam that he receives every day on Twitter.

Re Ashkenazi Jews, yes, that's what I meant with the "white privilege" quip. This time around I think we're pretty far down the hit list, as a group, though not necessarily off it entirely. But more vulnerable groups could really be fucked over, and I don't want to stand by and let that happen.

BTW, I'd spare some rage for Jewish people who kept supporting the far right, out of supposed loyalty to Israel. But right now, I'm too full of nausea and emptiness to feel much in the way of anger.

A) FOR NOW, Trump's surrogates are scrambling to explain why His "chief strategist" is not a Racist. The ADL came out already and had something to say about him

Jonathan Greenblat, of the Anti-Defamation League civil rights group, said: "It is a sad day when a man who presided over the premier website of the 'alt-right' - a loose-knit group of white nationalists and unabashed anti-Semites and racists - is slated to be a senior staff member in the 'people's house'."

B) Trump himself had to come out and ask his supporters to stop harassing minorities. Of course he tried to downplay it, saying that there were just a couple of incidents. HOWEVER:

Richard Cohen, President of the Southern Poverty Law Canter told CNN's "New Day" on Monday that there have been more that 300 incidents that their organization has recorded.
"He needs to take a little bit more responsibility for what's happening," Cohen said.

Maybe they'll be smart enough to keep the heat down while boiling the frog (which of course is VERY scary). But, considering how they ran their campaign I doubt it. Like I said, don't give his supporters any excuse to hollow out institutions with "emergency measures". AND, to avoid protests turn violent because Law Enforcement shot first and asked questions later (assuming the worst of your fears), have PLENTY of media coverage.

[Thumper]

Peeing on a stack of pancakes

[SciFi Chick]

I know, Jews had the "very questionable privilege" of being the first minority that faced extermination in modern times. And that man is gay as well, It's understandable to be afraid. On the plus side, distasteful as it sounds, Ashkenazi Jews look very similar to what the average "privileged whites" look like. So I am sure that the application of Godwin's Law is not going to be an issue here. Again, the thing is NOT to let the nutjobs destroy your institutions, that means, RIGHT NOW, working public opinion without panicking. Yes. the man's Grandmother said "don't worry this can't happen here". But nobody in their right mind, is saying that. The ones I hear say "We HAVE to make sure THAT WON'T happen here".

No. They like to make you think that, but it was the Armenians and Greeks that suffered the first modern attempt at genocide at the hands of the Turks. They called it a holocaust, but the Jews appropriated that word for themselves, so now it "merely" gets referred to as a genocide. It came closer to succeeding than Hitler did with the Jews.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I know, Jews had the "very questionable privilege" of being the first minority that faced extermination in modern times. And that man is gay as well, It's understandable to be afraid. On the plus side, distasteful as it sounds, Ashkenazi Jews look very similar to what the average "privileged whites" look like. So I am sure that the application of Godwin's Law is not going to be an issue here. Again, the thing is NOT to let the nutjobs destroy your institutions, that means, RIGHT NOW, working public opinion without panicking. Yes. the man's Grandmother said "don't worry this can't happen here". But nobody in their right mind, is saying that. The ones I hear say "We HAVE to make sure THAT WON'T happen here".

No. They like to make you think that, but it was the Armenians and Greeks that suffered the first modern attempt at genocide at the hands of the Turks. They called it a holocaust, but the Jews appropriated that word for themselves, so now it "merely" gets referred to as a genocide. It came closer to succeeding than Hitler did with the Jews.

Regarding the Armenians, you are right. I read that one, but didn't remember. Didn't know about the Greeks though.

[Cyborg Girl]

Right SFC, sorry I missed that.

Though as Hitler himself infamously noted, the success of the genocide by the Turks is a large part of the reason why it's rarely mentioned. Not enough witnesses.

Edit: also, to be clear, I don't think most American Jews "like you to think" that the Nazi Holocaust was the first such genocide. More likely that most have heard about the Holocaust since childhood, but never about the Armenians.

IOW, tribalism works for victims too.

[squ1d]

They called it a holocaust, but the Jews appropriated that word for themselves, so now it "merely" gets referred to as a genocide.

That sounds a bit anti semetic!

Raphael Lemkin coined the term "genocide" in 1943 to describe what happened to the Armenians.

The Turks are the ones to blame for the obscurity of the Armenian genocide.

[Rommie]

They called it a holocaust, but the Jews appropriated that word for themselves, so now it "merely" gets referred to as a genocide.

That sounds a bit anti semetic!

Raphael Lemkin coined the term "genocide" in 1943 to describe what happened to the Armenians.

The Turks are the ones to blame for the obscurity of the Armenian genocide.

What he said.

[SciFi Chick]

They called it a holocaust, but the Jews appropriated that word for themselves, so now it "merely" gets referred to as a genocide.

That sounds a bit anti semetic!

Raphael Lemkin coined the term "genocide" in 1943 to describe what happened to the Armenians.

The Turks are the ones to blame for the obscurity of the Armenian genocide.

Of course, because I am so very anti-Semitic. At least I can spell the word.

To address what GJ said - I wasn't blaming American Jews. And perhaps I should have used the word Israel. The information I'm sharing is from a class I took in Glendale, California back in 2001. My memory isn't good enough to list the citations. Glendale has a very large populations of Armenians. In fact, I was the only non-Armenian in the class. It was a fantastic experience, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some bias, 'cause that's what we humans do. If y'all want to really make this into a conversation, I'll be happy to hunt up some citations and we can have a fascinating conversation. Probably should move it out of this thread, however.

I just wanted to point out that the first modern genocide was the Armenians (and the Greeks) not the Jews.

To respond to Sigma's point - they weren't as successful at killing the Greeks, which is probably why that doesn't pop up on the radar as much.

[Sigma_Orionis]

To respond to Sigma's point - they weren't as successful at killing the Greeks, which is probably why that doesn't pop up on the radar as much.

But it helps explain why Greeks and Turks hate each other since forever.

[SciFi Chick]

To respond to Sigma's point - they weren't as successful at killing the Greeks, which is probably why that doesn't pop up on the radar as much.

But it helps explain why Greeks and Turks hate each other since forever.

Absolutely!

[Cyborg Girl]

@SFC, I know you're not personally an anti-Semite (which is why I let that fly). But squ1d and Rommie are right, the way you put it sounds uncomfortably like an anti-Semitic talking point.

In other news:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... racy-party

This is from a guy who helped start the Occupy movement!

Meanwhile, the head of the LAPD has said his police department would not cooperate with Trump's administration on mass deportations. Which is... unexpected, and heartening. I had expected complete capitulation from the get-go from law enforcement brass.

Now hopefully they'll stick with that, and a few hundred more cities will follow suit... Then the question will be how willing Trump is to prosecute, harass, frame, or assassinate local politicians and law enforcement in order to replace them with toadies.

[Rommie]

Meanwhile, the head of the LAPD has said his police department would not cooperate with Trump's administration on mass deportations. Which is... unexpected, and heartening. I had expected complete capitulation from the get-go from law enforcement brass.

Nah, I remembered enough of the George W Bush era to know that wasn't going to happen. Also mayors in major cities like Chicago and Pilly have announced they are not going to stop being sanctuary cities.

That said, there are plenty of smaller cities in more conservative areas which will be happy to "turn a blind eye" to things, places that are not big as LA (but where is, really) but still tally millions of people in population when added up.

The second place to worry is self-censorship, I've noticed. The American Astronomical Society is currently in a big brouhaha because they have various blogs on their pages, and the minority blogger posted something about solidarity in light of the recent election for minorities who might be concerned. It was then yanked, though the AAS promises they're now consulting with their lawyers and may put it back up if they say it's ok. But what the hell does it say about our professional organization when a statement about standing by minorities is too controversial? (Even more crazy, the American Physical Society put up a statement congratulating Trump and saying physics should be part of making America great again. That got yanked too, because of the outrage.)

[Cyborg Girl]

... The American Physical Society? Seriously?

But yeah, I think that goes hand-in-hand with normalization/rationalization.

Edit:

Re capitulation, for me it might come down to personality. I expect other people not to be bullies and sadists, because I am generally not one. However, I do expect other people to be cowards, because I am usually a coward. I'm not sure though what reality and cognitive science would have to say about either case though (c.f. Zimbardo).

[SciFiFisher]

... The American Physical Society? Seriously?

But yeah, I think that goes hand-in-hand with normalization/rationalization.

Edit:

Re capitulation, for me it might come down to personality. I expect other people not to be bullies and sadists, because I am generally not one. However, I do expect other people to be cowards, because I am usually a coward. I'm not sure though what reality and cognitive science would have to say about either case though (c.f. Zimbardo).

Physics... Gotta Love Autocorrect.