Thirteen Reasons Why

[Thumper]

Anybody seen or heard of this Netflix series?

[vendic]

nope

[SciFi Chick]

I watched the first episode. I think I might have started a second episode. It's not really my thing, but based on some of the stuff you like Thumper, I think it might be a series you would enjoy with your daughter. I believe it's primarily about cyberbullying.

It's based on a book. I might check that out and see if I'm giving you good info.

Edited to add:

Okay, I've read up on it now. The reviews are mixed. Some people think it's amazing. Some people hate it. This isn't a spoiler, because you find this out literally in the first five minutes of the first episode. A young woman has committed suicide. The rest of the series is about finding out why. Now you can decide if it's for you.

[Thumper]

We're about 8-10 episodes in. The Kid found it. I haven't seen all the episodes so at times I'm a little lost. I'm intrigued. Her school sent out and email outlining concerns about it glorifying suicide, and the suicide contagion effect. I look forward to seeing it to conclusion and discussing it with her.

Just wondering if anyone else had heard of it.

[SciFi Chick]

We're about 8-10 episodes in. The Kid found it. I haven't seen all the episodes so at times I'm a little lost. I'm intrigued. Her school sent out and email outlining concerns about it glorifying suicide, and the suicide contagion effect. I look forward to seeing it to conclusion and discussing it with her.

Just wondering if anyone else had heard of it.

I think it's probably a FANTASTIC tool for engaged parents to discuss with their children. In the one episode I watched, it had excellent production values. But, as I have no children and am no longer in danger of committing suicide, I gave it a pass. When you're finished, I would love to read your thoughts on it and I'd be curious about The Kid's response as well.

[Thumper]

We were going to watch the finale last night but it got late and I needed to go beddie-by. We'll try this week. My thinking is that even if it's not great, or not entirely accurate, if it foster's discussion and increases communication, it's probably a good thing. The movie Hidden Figures had glaring inaccuracies. But it got a larger population thinking and talking about those women, their essential accomplishments to the space program, and until now their lack of recognition.

[Thumper]

The three of us watched the final episode together last night. It hurt on multiple levels. We didn't get a chance to discuss it afterwards which was disappointing. But it was late and we all needed to go to bed. I cried in the shower this morning thinking about it. Therapists and child psychologists may have their professional opinions about showing the suicide scene, whether it "glorified" taking your own life, and contributed to the suicide contagion. For me personally, for me personally, I had a physical revulsion and had to look away at one point. I never have to look away. It didn't look glorifying to me. It hurt my soul as it brought up many different memories.

[Thumper]

Got to talk with The Kid a bit about it last night on the way home. I thought it was good conversation. Also, there is a "making of" episode we started to watch. It was good if not for any other reason to see the young actors for who they are and not the rotten kids they played.

[Rommie]

I remember back when the book was making the rounds (it's a YA one) but haven't checked out the series yet. I do want to though.

[Thumper]

The author is featured in the "making of" episode. I think the book is about 10 years old. The Kid was surprised to learn the Selena Gomez is one of the executive producers of the series. I had read about that in some of the links that were sent out by her school.

[Rommie]

Watched the first three episodes tonight. My notable reactions are first off a. this fictional town is really damn pretty, and b. how the hell do all these kids have such awesome, beautiful vintage cars?! Like even the "poor kid" is going around in a vintage Mustang!

[Rommie]

This articlecaught my eye- apparently one superintendent at least has claimed there's an increased rise in elementary/ middle school students engaging in self-harm/ threatening suicide. (Warning, article has spoilers.) Who aren't supposed to be watching it per its rating (I certainly don't think an 11 year old should watch what I've seen so far at least), but ya know how that goes.

I will say, now that I've slept on it the few episodes I've seen so far (3) do kinda seem like a teenager's fantasy about what would happen if s/he died, as right now we haven't seen said suicide, and what's really happened is she's gotten the people who wronged her freaking out and running around on her behalf and paying attention. Obviously I expect my opinion to change knowing how it ends, but just thought I'd share that.

[Thumper]

Watched the first three episodes tonight. My notable reactions are first off a. this fictional town is really damn pretty, and b. how the hell do all these kids have such awesome, beautiful vintage cars?! Like even the "poor kid" is going around in a vintage Mustang!

Yeah, I kept meaning to see where it was filmed because is is beautiful. Hey we all had cherry Chevelles and Mustangs at our high school. Didn't you guys? I think it's part of the "Friends" effect.

[SciFi Chick]

It was shot in California. I didn't look up where the specific cities are, but I'm betting further north.

[Thumper]

Those are all in the San Francisco Bay area.

[Rommie]

[spoilers ahead]

Watched two more episodes. So I'm not gonna lie, I don't think the worries about how vulnerable teenagers might be reacting to all this is baseless- right now it's primarily a long narrative of a revenge fantasy and sending your message across to make everyone around you feel guilty that they caused your death. If I was working in suicide prevention I'd be really concerned by that attitude because a huge part of loss in these cases is dealing with people who knew the victim to make them understand that they are not guilty (because granted usually teenagers do it who are mentally ill, rather than being jerks like in the series). And further, one of the strangest things about suicide is it can be modeled as a contagious disease in a community (amongst all ages, not just teens), which is why no one ever releases details about people who commit suicide on a train track or whatever. I'm not sure if a TV series has that power to hurt over help... but I can see where the concern is stemming from.

The other one that kinda annoys me in that "I know it would ruin the drama if it was different" angle is wow, the parents and adults in this world suck. They're either abusive, completely absent so there's 100% no supervision, or apparently literally think the reaction to "I have something important to discuss with you" "no, I'm going out the door now to the coffee house to meet with a friend!" is to let their kid leave and just remark to the other parent "you know, you're right, maybe something's up." I mean, I know my parents were strict and likely more involved in my life than the average, but who does that? It'd be severe disrespect to do that to anyone in your life, let alone your parents.

I dunno... as I said, I know why a series does it, because not much drama if the adults actually are competent and the kids don't have to solve everything themselves, but it certainly doesn't give the impression of "talk to an adult if you're in this bad a situation." (And if I have to make a prediction, I'm sure I'll get even more pissed off at the incompetence of adults who are supposed to be watching out for kids in this as the series continues.) Which there's an obvious solution to- watching it with your kid like Thumper did, school informing parents that this show is currently popular amongst teens, etc. But anyway, just a rant.

To be clear, I am actually enjoying the show- I feel like it's been a really long time since I saw something I enjoyed out of the teenage high school set. It strangely reminds me a lot about Juno, which was another sufficiently controversial teenaged phenomenon when I was a teen that was controversial just for daring to address teen pregnancy. But just sharing things I've noticed, I guess... and thinking yeah, if I was a school administrator, I'd definitely be sending home a note about the show just so parents are aware of it.

[Thumper]

I don't really disagree with any of your comments and observations. Mrs. T didn't think any of the characters, child or adult were sympathetic. And if I'd have dissed my parents like some of those kids did, I'd sill be missing my @ass.

And yet it is strangely enjoyable and addictive. We wanted to see what happened next. The reveal was clever. And it got us talking a bit as a whole family. Our local NPR affiliate dedicated an entire hour this morning on their call in/interview show about suicide in general and the series in particular. That discussion, and others that are being generated, is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion.

[Rommie]

I definitely agree! I'm sure that is a difficult thing with suicide- you definitely want to be able to talk about it, but the tone of conversation is hard to strike. So I guess you take it as it comes.

(What's your local station btw? Might see if I can find the show on NPR One.)

And yeah, I'm not a huge fan of any of the characters- even said suicidal girl, while she of course does not deserve her treatment by the other students, frankly comes off as a bit bitchy to me in the first episode and not all that different from the students who are "mean" later. But then, perhaps that's the point.

[Thumper]

WOSU 89.7
All Sides with Ann Fisher

[SciFi Chick]

Y'all are doing a nice job of summing this up so I don't have to actually watch it.

And it's not that I'm against watching it. It's just that, quite frankly, my life is so shitty right now, that I'm losing myself in upbeat fantasy rather than heart wrenching drama.

[Thumper]

Totally understand. I really didn't want to watch the finale. But The Kid did and I wanted to be informed so we could talk. I'd rather watch something happy, or an Astronaut documentary.

[Rommie]

[obvious spoilers ahead warning]

Finished the show this weekend. First observation- I did definitely enjoy it, as evidenced by how I finished it fairly quickly. I do think a lot of my complaints previously about how the show is unfolding are not going to be issues for the second season, now that the the tapes have been distributed to a wider audience that includes some adults. I still think Clay's dad is a pretty terrible father and partner- I think freaking the hell out when your son who just keyed someone's car is playing hooky and not answering his phone is more than appropriate, and I'm pretty sure I'd murder my own if his reaction was "relax, he's just playing basketball with friends!" or whatever it was. Once again, I know why the series had to have relaxed parents, but what the hell. No wonder these kids are all so badly behaved, no one follows through with even basic discipline!

As an aside, I guess I'm identifying more with the parents these days than the kids. I didn't cry at the showing of the suicide, but I did when they had the scene of her parents discovering her. Just awful.

Also, I should note that interestingly, by the end of it the only kid I really hated was Courtney. To explain, most of them were messed up because their lives were messed up in various ways or in ways that teenagers do stupid shit that sometimes catches up with them. I mean, Bryce is such a douchey and terrible person/ stereotype that it's hard to really invest much emotion there. But I think Courtney is so different because it takes a special kind of sociopathy to so casually throw people under the bus and think that one secret justifies destroying other people's lives, and it's terrifying to watch. All the other kids show some sort of remorse except her, really.

Similarly, I do like that Clay is not really a perfect angel himself- terrible as what the photography kid did was, that doesn't make it ok to send out a nude of him to the entire school. And that cache of guns make me wonder if we're going to have "13 reasons why I did a school shooting" to justify another season at some point. (Though I have to say, if you had a drunk driver death, suicide, attempted suicide, and a school shooting, you'd be the most dysfunctional school in America so hope they don't go that road.)

Anyway, bring on season 2.

[Thumper]

As an aside, I guess I'm identifying more with the parents these days than the kids. I didn't cry at the showing of the suicide, but I did when they had the scene of her parents discovering her. Just awful.

That's when I knew my little girl was not so little. We were talking about the scene and I told her how horrified I was. She said, "I felt so bad for the mother. How terrible that would be."

As for the likeability of the characters, Mrs. T didn't sympathize with any of them, including Hannah and Clay.

[grapes]

Similarly, I do like that Clay is not really a perfect angel himself- terrible as what the photography kid did was, that doesn't make it ok to send out a nude of him to the entire school. And that cache of guns make me wonder if we're going to have "13 reasons why I did a school shooting" to justify another season at some point. (Though I have to say, if you had a drunk driver death, suicide, attempted suicide, and a school shooting, you'd be the most dysfunctional school in America so hope they don't go that road.)

Is there a school in the US that hasn't had a drunk driver death? Suicide among teens are like, what, 1 in 10,000? School shootings are rarer, sure. But given a school shooting, it might be fairly high odds to satisfy that criteria.

Anyway, bring on season 2.

OK, renewed

[Rommie]

Similarly, I do like that Clay is not really a perfect angel himself- terrible as what the photography kid did was, that doesn't make it ok to send out a nude of him to the entire school. And that cache of guns make me wonder if we're going to have "13 reasons why I did a school shooting" to justify another season at some point. (Though I have to say, if you had a drunk driver death, suicide, attempted suicide, and a school shooting, you'd be the most dysfunctional school in America so hope they don't go that road.)

Is there a school in the US that hasn't had a drunk driver death? Suicide among teens are like, what, 1 in 10,000? School shootings are rarer, sure. But given a school shooting, it might be fairly high odds to satisfy that criteria.

Anyway, bring on season 2.

OK, renewed

Thanks!

Re: drunk driving deaths, quick Google search tells me there are ~4500 deaths caused by teen drinking a year in the USA, and ~35k high schools (public and private- interestingly almost a third are private). So statistically your school gets one student killed every 8 years from drunk driving, though of course some schools are bigger/smaller, urban ones likely don't have as much need to drive, etc etc. But yeah I was kinda wondering about this, because I don't remember any teen dying of drunk driving when I was in high school in my area even though we were in suburbia- there was a girl a few years above me who died on an icy road though.

As I'm typing this out, I also realized it made no sense that they just assumed the kid was drunk driving- wouldn't they have done an autopsy to confirm he hadn't had a brain hemorrhage or something? But not like I really know.