Microaggressions

[SciFiFisher]

I really want to know from someone in the field, can Caucasian straight males be victims of microaggression because everyone keeps telling them that they are privileged?

I am seriously asking this, it's not a joke.
From what I can tell, the general consensus is that they can not be, but I'd like to know from someone teaching this stuff.

From the perspective of having to deal with this stuff in a slightly different context. i.e. the military and being a military commander.

The general consensus seems to be that the Victimizer, or a person who is a beneficiary of the system which victimizes people, is not allowed to claim that they too are victims. Of course, that is a general rule. It's similar to the rule that if you are white you aren't a victim of racism. But, most people can find examples of black's being "racist". At the end of the day the system imposes general rules. Individuals in positions of authority are required to use the context and apply discernment and judgement to the individual situations.

You should hear the discussions that go on in a room full of commanders when we talk about Transgender people in our ranks.

[vendic]

I can imagine!

I find the idea that "everyone is equal" but we have to make them unequal for there to be equality, very much prone to serious abuse.

[grapes]

I think the distinction that is made now is that everybody is prejudiced, but racism has general, systemic, institutionalized support

In other words, if you know you can make a dick remark without repercussion, and do, you're probably racist

[vendic]

I love the irony of racist people yelling at a white guy because all white people are racists while telling everyone that you can't be racist if you're black.

[Rommie]

I really want to know from someone in the field, can Caucasian straight males be victims of microaggression because everyone keeps telling them that they are privileged?

I am seriously asking this, it's not a joke.
From what I can tell, the general consensus is that they can not be, but I'd like to know from someone teaching this stuff.

To answer this question, this guy has a good way of discussing what he's calling the staircase of oppression (apparently there's a Ted Talk about this, by someone named Angela Sun).

So, basically he does a good distinction between discrimination and oppression (before which you have stereotypes that turn into prejudice, but yeah not explaining all of this right now). The difference between discrimination and oppression is the power differential, from both historical and institutional things.

So in the case of a group of gay people starting a group that does not allow straight people, for example, that's discriminatory and might not feel great if you're not allowed to join, but that exists because historically that group hasn't had power. If straight people were to do the same thing, that power differential of excluding a marginalized group makes that an oppressive action. So in conclusion, yes, you can discriminate against a dominant group, but that's not the same as oppressing them.

Anyway, AMA about microagressions, just did the seminar but no promises I know all the answers.

[SciFiFisher]

I really want to know from someone in the field, can Caucasian straight males be victims of microaggression because everyone keeps telling them that they are privileged?

I am seriously asking this, it's not a joke.
From what I can tell, the general consensus is that they can not be, but I'd like to know from someone teaching this stuff.

To answer this question, this guy has a good way of discussing what he's calling the staircase of oppression (apparently there's a Ted Talk about this, by someone named Angela Sun).

So, basically he does a good distinction between discrimination and oppression (before which you have stereotypes that turn into prejudice, but yeah not explaining all of this right now). The difference between discrimination and oppression is the power differential, from both historical and institutional things.

So in the case of a group of gay people starting a group that does not allow straight people, for example, that's discriminatory and might not feel great if you're not allowed to join, but that exists because historically that group hasn't had power. If straight people were to do the same thing, that power differential of excluding a marginalized group makes that an oppressive action. So in conclusion, yes, you can discriminate against a dominant group, but that's not the same as oppressing them.

Anyway, AMA about microagressions, just did the seminar but no promises I know all the answers.

Ah.... When explained that way it makes sense. Of course, it would be easy to conflate discrimination and oppression. And everyone has a story about an outlier or an exception.

[Rommie]

Yeah, but you can't really control how others react to things, you know?

Frankly, most all the cases we had were probably things people on this board would realize are not appropriate (like, off-color jokes about women, insisting the black person must be on the diversity committee even though they say they're too busy, etc...). At some point I just asked flat out what makes something "micro" vs "macro," because a lot of these struck me as a bigger deal than micro, but yeah, turns out the issue is it's subtle because it can really depend on your workplace culture. Which is true- at CWRU, for example, a prof I had real trouble with in my grades said offhand in a faculty meeting once how grades had been going down in his courses since more women started taking them. Which would NOT fly where I am now, but where I was, no one spoke up about it. (A lot of it was also pointing out to basically the white guys and faculty to speak up when they are in a group where that happens, because someone like the one woman in the room usually doesn't feel comfortable doing so. Which was the case then.)

Then because I suspect this audience would find it interesting, we had the one guy who said how he once had two women coming into his office and saying "your desk is so messy, it's because you're a man!" and he didn't feel anything bad about that, and did that count. So that was pointing out the whole "the group with power does not feel oppression thing"- men tend to not face bad consequences from being messy. But, the guy who asked it has an Asian ethnicity- would he have felt the same if they said "your desk is so messy, it's because you're Asian!"? Answer was yes, that would have bothered him a bit.

Anyway, it was interesting. And after all that we all just regressed to joking about everything being a microaggression at dinner, so I like to believe this is a good work environment of wanting to learn it, because no one wants to be a jerk, then not taking stuff seriously because that would interfere with karaoke.

[SciFiFisher]

That reminds me of the day I had my "ah ha" moment. We were having a mandatory Sexual Harassment class in the army. It was 1980. The instructor was trying to explain the difference between joking around and sexual harassment. I asked her: How do I know the difference when I am talking to someone? And her reply was "it depends on how the person receiving the message perceives it". Essentially, if I tell an off color joke and the audience likes it it's all good. But, if someone feels that off color joke is making them uncomfortable then it doesn't matter if everyone else likes the joke. The joke gets banned from my list of jokes I tell people.

I like to think I have gotten very good at judging the audience. I also have always been very good about knowing to keep my hands to myself.

I think people don't stop to consider that being sensitive to your audience is just good manners. I also grew up in an era where you were essentially taught that it didn't matter what your think about other cultures or races. You treat everyone as if they are decent people until they teach you otherwise. And even then you treat people with courtesy. Just because I think putting a bone in a woman's nose to make her more attractive is about the craziest thing I have ever heard I certainly wouldn't tell the woman she looked ugly.

[vendic]

That reminds me of the day I had my "ah ha" moment. We were having a mandatory Sexual Harassment class in the army. It was 1980. The instructor was trying to explain the difference between joking around and sexual harassment. I asked her: How do I know the difference when I am talking to someone? And her reply was "it depends on how the person receiving the message perceives it". Essentially, if I tell an off color joke and the audience likes it it's all good. But, if someone feels that off color joke is making them uncomfortable then it doesn't matter if everyone else likes the joke. The joke gets banned from my list of jokes I tell people.

Some people will take offense just by your presence, you don't even have to do anything.
Others take offense depending on how you look, what sex you are, what color you are, how wealthy you are, where you live, where you were born etc.
I learned a long time ago that two people can say exactly the same thing in the same way and one will be received with warmth, the other vilified. The difference is on what that person thought of you before you said anything. IOW, many people pre-judge a person then act according to what they already decided.

So from that POV, I cannot see how the standard is if anyone was offended by what someone said. Often the real offense happened before words were exchanged. The victim and perpetrator then swap roles and the actual victim is usually ripped apart since the only evidence is what was said, not what was perceived in someones mind before the exchange.
I saw this kind of stuff regularly when I was younger. I'd repeat the same words to people that I saw got a favorable response when said by someone else. I hardly used to speak to people at all back then. I was an observer most of the time. The reaction I got was dictated by who I said it to and what they thought of me to begin with. After a while I could pick up pretty well with body language what a persons reaction was going to be before I said anything at all. So I tested various things, being rude, being nice, being an ass etc, to see the responses. I was a weird kid...

[Rommie]

No, just shows you don't hang out with kids much- they all do that, and think they're being super subtle too.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Some people will take offense just by your presence, you don't even have to do anything.
Others take offense depending on how you look, what sex you are, what color you are, how wealthy you are, where you live, where you were born etc.
I learned a long time ago that two people can say exactly the same thing in the same way and one will be received with warmth, the other vilified. The difference is on what that person thought of you before you said anything. IOW, many people pre-judge a person then act according to what they already decided.

So from that POV, I cannot see how the standard is if anyone was offended by what someone said. Often the real offense happened before words were exchanged. The victim and perpetrator then swap roles and the actual victim is usually ripped apart since the only evidence is what was said, not what was perceived in someones mind before the exchange.
I saw this kind of stuff regularly when I was younger. I'd repeat the same words to people that I saw got a favorable response when said by someone else. I hardly used to speak to people at all back then. I was an observer most of the time. The reaction I got was dictated by who I said it to and what they thought of me to begin with. After a while I could pick up pretty well with body language what a persons reaction was going to be before I said anything at all. So I tested various things, being rude, being nice, being an ass etc, to see the responses. I was a weird kid...

Apparently I'm in that group that manages to offend everyone just by my manner of speaking. I've been told by a therapist that I'm an overbearing person who treats everyone else as they're stupid and that's why I'm always stuck with the messy unpleasant jobs and nobody cares to remember about me except when there is trouble. Obviously, never saw that therapist again

[vendic]

Apparently I'm in that group that manages to offend everyone just by my manner of speaking. I've been told by a therapist that I'm an overbearing person who treats everyone else as they're stupid and that's why I'm always stuck with the messy unpleasant jobs and nobody cares to remember about me except when there is trouble. Obviously, never saw that therapist again

Why?
Sounds like a pretty spot on description to me!
I should know. lol

[vendic]

No, just shows you don't hang out with kids much- they all do that, and think they're being super subtle too.

Are you saying I'm not subtle?

[Sigma_Orionis]

Apparently I'm in that group that manages to offend everyone just by my manner of speaking. I've been told by a therapist that I'm an overbearing person who treats everyone else as they're stupid and that's why I'm always stuck with the messy unpleasant jobs and nobody cares to remember about me except when there is trouble. Obviously, never saw that therapist again

Why?
Sounds like a pretty spot on description to me!
I should know. lol

Yeah, you should

[SciFiFisher]

Everyone knows the definition of subtle: If they don't see the sledge hammer it's subtle.