So... Florida and Zimmerman, huh?

[SciFiFisher]

Without commenting on whether the feds should prosecute Zimmerman for anything, I will point that there is no constitutional ban on two sovereigns prosecuting a person for the same crime. The state - a sovereign - can do it and then the feds - a wholly separate sovereign - can haul his ass in court for the same thing. The state cannot do it twice and the feds cannot either. That's the constitutional protection.

The usual reason the feds don't step in and prosecute someone for the same crime is that there often isn't a federal law that corresponds to the state criminal law. 2nd degree murder, for example. That's why you see federal prosecutions for hate crimes, civil rights violations, racketeering and such.

In the more unusual cases where there is a federal law that criminalizes the same act as does a state law, the feds can prosecute all they want after the state gives it a try. Not unconstitutional. Note also, federal prosecutors sometimes choose not to prosecute if the state has been successful and a sufficiently stiff sentence has been handed own. Waste of taxpayers money.

Out of curiosity, isn't trying someone for a civil rights violation because you are unhappy that the state didn't convict them for murder similar to what they did to Al Capone? and hasn't the Supreme Court essentially ruled that you can't send a person to jail for tax evasion (i.e. an alternate crime) in lieu of other crimes? IIRC they sentenced Al Capone to 20 years for a crime that should have been much less (sentence wise).

[FZR1KG]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not sure why Zimmerman didn't at least get a manslaughter conviction. Leaving aside the "was he in fear of his life from Martin or not," Zimmerman had no legal or reasonable cause to get out of his damn vehicle.

He owns the "first cause," and it seems reasonable to me he should own everything that comes after it. The Murder 2 charge was a charge of intent. The Manslaughter charge is a...don't know what the legal term is...charge of fact? Zimmerman initiated a series of events that ultimately caused the death of Martin. If he'd stayed in his damn vehicle, no dead young man. That was the pivotal action to all this, and Zimmerman undertook it without being under threat.

The FWIS legal team is free to correct me, it has been amply demonstrated in the past, I know dick about the Law.

Problem is that the police told Zimmerman to stop pursuing the guy and he did. The guy came back to confront him.
Also if there were no robberies in the preceding week this wouldn't have happened, so are the guys that committed the robberies guilty of initiating a murder?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "had no legal or reasonable cause to get out of his vehicle".
Are you saying that if you see a black man on the street you have to stay in your car to avoid a possible confrontation?
Because shit, I'd be guilty of attempted murder last week at the car wash when I decided to initiate a chat with a young black guy that two rednecks were staring at.

What law is there that says he has to stay in his vehicle?

[SciFiFisher]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not sure why Zimmerman didn't at least get a manslaughter conviction. Leaving aside the "was he in fear of his life from Martin or not," Zimmerman had no legal or reasonable cause to get out of his damn vehicle.

He owns the "first cause," and it seems reasonable to me he should own everything that comes after it. The Murder 2 charge was a charge of intent. The Manslaughter charge is a...don't know what the legal term is...charge of fact? Zimmerman initiated a series of events that ultimately caused the death of Martin. If he'd stayed in his damn vehicle, no dead young man. That was the pivotal action to all this, and Zimmerman undertook it without being under threat.

The FWIS legal team is free to correct me, it has been amply demonstrated in the past, I know dick about the Law.

Problem is that the police told Zimmerman to stop pursuing the guy and he did. The guy came back to confront him.
Also if there were no robberies in the preceding week this wouldn't have happened, so are the guys that committed the robberies guilty of initiating a murder?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "had no legal or reasonable cause to get out of his vehicle".
Are you saying that if you see a black man on the street you have to stay in your car to avoid a possible confrontation?
Because shit, I'd be guilty of attempted murder last week at the car wash when I decided to initiate a chat with a young black guy that two rednecks were staring at.

What law is there that says he has to stay in his vehicle?

When the police told Zimmerman to stop pursuing Martin and stay in his truck there is the implication that they issued a lawful order. If it was indeed a lawful order then Zimmerman violated that order when he got out of his truck anyway. There is no law per se that forbade Zimmerman from exiting his truck. There is a law that says he has to obey police officials while in the execution of their duties and that they have the authority to give instructions which must be followed. Apparently, Zimmerman was not in violation of that statue or I am sure the prosecution would have brought that into play.

[FZR1KG]

When the police told Zimmerman to stop pursuing Martin and stay in his truck there is the implication that they issued a lawful order. If it was indeed a lawful order then Zimmerman violated that order when he got out of his truck anyway. There is no law per se that forbade Zimmerman from exiting his truck. There is a law that says he has to obey police officials while in the execution of their duties and that they have the authority to give instructions which must be followed. Apparently, Zimmerman was not in violation of that statue or I am sure the prosecution would have brought that into play.

Pretty sure a police officer can't give you an order over the phone in such situations.
That would set a bad precedent on so many levels I'm sure the universe would collapse into itself trying to justify it.

[SciFi Chick]

When the police told Zimmerman to stop pursuing Martin and stay in his truck there is the implication that they issued a lawful order. If it was indeed a lawful order then Zimmerman violated that order when he got out of his truck anyway. There is no law per se that forbade Zimmerman from exiting his truck. There is a law that says he has to obey police officials while in the execution of their duties and that they have the authority to give instructions which must be followed. Apparently, Zimmerman was not in violation of that statue or I am sure the prosecution would have brought that into play.

That's not what happened. He was talking to the police. Martin started running away. Zimmerman got out of the car and started pursuing him while telling the dispatcher that he was running away. The dispatcher said, "Are you pursuing him?" Zimmerman responded, "Yes." The dispatcher then said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman said, "Okay." And then he stopped pursuing him and headed back to his truck.

[FZR1KG]

That's what Zimmerman claimed.
The prosecution claimed he kept pursuing but IIRC had nothing but speculation to justify why they thought it.
Its part of the problem when there is only one person to recount the story.
The alternatives have to be speculated on assuming they line up with the facts and sound plausible.
Sounds like they didn't really stand up to either.

[SciFi Chick]

That's what Zimmerman claimed.
The prosecution claimed he kept pursuing but IIRC had nothing but speculation to justify why they thought it.
Its part of the problem when there is only one person to recount the story.
The alternatives have to be speculated on assuming they line up with the facts and sound plausible.
Sounds like they didn't really stand up to either.

The reason it sounds plausible to me is because of how he sounded on the phone call before and after the dispatcher told him to stop pursuing.

[geonuc]

Out of curiosity, isn't trying someone for a civil rights violation because you are unhappy that the state didn't convict them for murder similar to what they did to Al Capone? and hasn't the Supreme Court essentially ruled that you can't send a person to jail for tax evasion (i.e. an alternate crime) in lieu of other crimes? IIRC they sentenced Al Capone to 20 years for a crime that should have been much less (sentence wise).

I don't know. Is it?

[Rommie]

Nothing to do with the verdict itself, but I found this op-ed piece interesting. Not so much for the first half, which I don't think is terribly new ground and gets into a touch of hyperbole, but the second part made me think (not so much about the verdict so much as racism in America today)-

As a parent, particularly a parent of black teenage boys, I am left with the question, “Now, what do I tell my boys?”

We used to say not to run in public because that might be seen as suspicious, like they’d stolen something. But according to Zimmerman, Martin drew his suspicion at least in part because he was walking too slowly.

So what do I tell my boys now? At what precise pace should a black man walk to avoid suspicion?

And can they ever stop walking away, or running away, and simply stand their ground? Can they become righteously indignant without being fatally wounded?

Is there anyplace safe enough, or any cargo innocent enough, for a black man in this country? Martin was where he was supposed to be — in a gated community — carrying candy and a canned drink.

The whole system failed Martin. What prevents it from failing my children, or yours?

I feel that I must tell my boys that, but I can’t. It’s stuck in my throat. It’s an impossibly heartbreaking conversation to have. So, I sit and watch in silence, and occasionally mouth the word, “breathe,” because I keep forgetting to.

As I saw a few people post on Facebook, it's a shame we can't live in a country where when Zimmerman saw a teenager walking in the rain his reaction wasn't to offer him a ride to where he was going. The mentality when I was growing up didn't really touch on what was in the article- I grew up in an all-white family where the only non-whites in our neighborhood were some professors from India and their families- but it does influence the lives of many families in the country. It must be a heartbreaking thing to tell your little boy how to watch out and not get profiled, and hear a story like this, and realize just how easily your child can get profiled just for the color of his skin even today.

I mean this all assumes Zimmerman called because Trayvon was a black kid walking around slowly and wouldn't have if it was a white kid, and yes we won't know either way for sure, but it did make me think a little.

[gethen]

This is another case in which I'm stunned at the variation in criminal laws throughout this country. In this state, manslaughter seems to be viewed as the accidental killing of another person. I've known drivers to be found guilty of it because of things like coming over a big hill, there's a stalled car in the road, and a truck driver couldn't stop in time to avoid it and someone was killed. As a direct result of your actions, another person died. Manslaughter. Sentences can vary widely to reflect the circumstances of the death. Yet in Florida a man picks a fight (at least that's how it looks to me), is getting the worst of it, and happens to have a gun on him and kills his opponent. If the confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman had happened in a bar, would the result be the same? Zimmerman initiates a fight, he's getting beat up, he pulls a gun and kills Martin? I just don't understand Florida law.

[Rebis]

Very disappointed to read of a small riot in L.A.

Some bystanders (sitting on bus bench or walking along) attacked; kicked, punched, etc.

Yeah, that's going to help the situation.

Those people didn't kill Travyon. Maybe they were sympathetic TO Travyon.

[Parrothead]

Question asked on one of the news channels:

What would have the reaction been, had things been reversed, black person acquitted and victim white? Would those protesing the verdict, be celebrating instead?

[SciFi Chick]

This is fucking dumb.

[Rebis]

This is fucking dumb.

Yes, that's the news article which prompted my earlier post.

And now the Zimmermans (George's parents) are in hiding from "numerous death threats."

*shakes head*

Canada's looking better all the time.

[Rommie]

Don't worry guys, we can read all about it soon- one of the jurors already has a book deal, that her lawyer husband will write! link

WTF justice system. You don't have a deal so soon after a trial unless you or your husband was shopping it around during the trial.

[FZR1KG]

There's been a lot of misinformation regarding this case from when it first happened and its still going.

Here's some facts:

1) He didn't know that Martin was black when he called the police.
2) He didn't go pick a fight, he was headed back to his car as directed by the police when Martin decided to confront him.
3) He didn't hit Martin once, Martin did all the beating.
4) He wasn't a racist, he has been known to help out local black kids and people and is part black himself.
5) Martin was the one that showed racist attitudes.

IOW, ignore the racist garbage, they are lies propagated by media and they are still continuing to push it, probably part through ignorance and part through desire to get sensationalism going to increase their readers/viewers.

Unfortunately this case seems to have been a trial by media more than a trial by facts.
Once again they got me hyped as well, for which I'm sorry for, but I've followed up to check their claims and they are either totally fabricated or have no proof whatsoever.

If I went by the media I'd be outraged and I was. If I look for the facts I still get outraged but at the amount of hate and false claims much of it deliberately spread against Zimmerman.

As such I really believe Zimmerman is being used as a scapegoat for the ills this country still has.
Sure Florida law has issues, don't condemn a man because you hate Florida law.

[SciFiFisher]

Don't worry guys, we can read all about it soon- one of the jurors already has a book deal, that her lawyer husband will write! link

WTF justice system. You don't have a deal so soon after a trial unless you or your husband was shopping it around during the trial.

It would be interesting to know if those negotiations went on during the trial and if that could be used as a basis to invalidate the jury's decision? Jury tampering?

[FZR1KG]

The husband wasn't on the jury so I don't see how that would work.

[Thumper]

There's been a lot of misinformation regarding this case from when it first happened and its still going.

Here's some facts:

1) He didn't know that Martin was black when he called the police.
2) He didn't go pick a fight, he was headed back to his car as directed by the police when Martin decided to confront him.
3) He didn't hit Martin once, Martin did all the beating.
4) He wasn't a racist, he has been known to help out local black kids and people and is part black himself.
5) Martin was the one that showed racist attitudes.

Unfortunatey, you don't really know the veracity of any of these statements. Except maybe 5) if you're counting the testimony of Martin's friend that he was being stalked and harrased by a "Creepy @ss Cracker."

If I went by the media I'd be outraged and I was. If I look for the facts I still get outraged but at the amount of hate and false claims much of it deliberately spread against Zimmerman.

As such I really believe Zimmerman is being used as a scapegoat for the ills this country still has.
Sure Florida law has issues, don't condemn a man because you hate Florida law.

I condem the man because he made a series of abysmal decisions that directly caused the death of an innocent boy. He shows no remorse, sorrow, or responsibility. His stories changed and evolved to better fit the defense he and his legal team wanted to present. He was well versed in the laws he was planning on using for his defense yet he lied about that as well. He is a danger to all around him. Especially young black men. In the 90 or so times he called the police, most of the time he was reporting "suspicious" activities of young black men. There is some consensus that in the recording of his call to police that night he said, "f'ing c00ns, they always get away." Well he didn't let this one get away. And there will never be any justice for Trayvon Martin's parents.

[Thumper]

The husband wasn't on the jury so I don't see how that would work.

Looks like the book deal has been quickly squashed.

[FZR1KG]

There's been a lot of misinformation regarding this case from when it first happened and its still going.

Here's some facts:

1) He didn't know that Martin was black when he called the police.
2) He didn't go pick a fight, he was headed back to his car as directed by the police when Martin decided to confront him.
3) He didn't hit Martin once, Martin did all the beating.
4) He wasn't a racist, he has been known to help out local black kids and people and is part black himself.
5) Martin was the one that showed racist attitudes.

Unfortunatey, you don't really know the veracity of any of these statements. Except maybe 5) if you're counting the testimony of Martin's friend that he was being stalked and harrased by a "Creepy @ss Cracker."

1) Listen to the tape of the call that was made. He said he thinks he's black and only stated that when the officer asked.
2) Listen to the call he made. He said ok and started walking back. As SFC pointed out, his breathing slowed once he was asked to stop following.
3) Look at the autopsy report. Not one bruise except his ring finger that he got while punching Zimmerman. Then look at Zimmerman. Pretty obvious who was hitting who and if anyone can't see that then they really need to revisit their bias.
4) As I've pointed out, he is mixed race and has black family and friends and also was an active member of the community speaking out against racism in particularly to blacks. Not sure why you want to dismiss all the evidence saying he isn't racist in favour of speculation that he is.
5) Why would I not want to count the testimony of Martins friend as to what their conversation was? I'm sorry it doesn't fit the nice placid innocent black kid image the media has pumped him up to be but I see no reason for Martins own friend lie about a racist slur Martin said to her.

If I went by the media I'd be outraged and I was. If I look for the facts I still get outraged but at the amount of hate and false claims much of it deliberately spread against Zimmerman.

As such I really believe Zimmerman is being used as a scapegoat for the ills this country still has.
Sure Florida law has issues, don't condemn a man because you hate Florida law.

I condem the man because he made a series of abysmal decisions that directly caused the death of an innocent boy. He shows no remorse, sorrow, or responsibility. His stories changed and evolved to better fit the defense he and his legal team wanted to present. He was well versed in the laws he was planning on using for his defense yet he lied about that as well. He is a danger to all around him. Especially young black men. In the 90 or so times he called the police, most of the time he was reporting "suspicious" activities of young black men. There is some consensus that in the recording of his call to police that night he said, "f'ing c00ns, they always get away." Well he didn't let this one get away. And there will never be any justice for Trayvon Martin's parents.

1) He called the police to report suspicious behaviour in an area where there were previous attempted burglaries. Thats an abysmal decision?
2) The boy was a young man, taller, fitter and stronger than Zimmerman, not the boy in the photo's from when he was 14.
3) He apologized to Martins parents. The fact that they don't believe him is their business. Not sure how a guy can show remorse if he was attacked and defended himself.
4) Being well versed in laws does not imply conspiracy to commit murder. Why are you demonizing the man?
5) What danger is he? He was voted on the watch program, he was well respected by everyone, including blacks until this incident. The media have distorted the facts. Check them out. you too may be appalled.
6) There is consensus that he said, fucking cold too and consensus from the FBI that it was not clear enough to determine what he said, but people will believe what they want in the absence of evidence.
7) Again you're implying that he deliberately killed a young man so he wouldn't get away with suspected burglary. Really? Given his lack of racism history?
8) His stories didn't change. The media's stories changed. Several media people were fired for misrepresenting the facts and editing to make him look racist. Retractions were made. This is the media being held accountable for blatant lies, not Zimmerman changing his story.


As I'd mentioned, I was against Zimmerman, swayed by false media reports. The guy the media put up is not the guy who was on trial. It was a fabricated persona.
Did you know that the police felt there was no evidence to present a case contrary to what Zimmerman stated?
Did you know that the former police chief was fired for not wanting to pursue this case because he felt that the media had misrepresented the facts.
Did you know that the first investigator asked to be taken off the case and put on the "beat" rather than investigate this case because he was being pressured to place charges he thought he would not stand scrutiny and Martins parents were behind the push to have him do this having a friend of theirs in the police force do some pressuring on their behalf?
Did you know there were multiple witnesses saying martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him and he was screaming repeatedly for help. No one came to help. Maybe those people should be found guilty because if they had acted no one would be dead? Zimmermans injuries and grass stains on his back corroborate those events. There are no injuries or grass stains on Martins body to corroborate other claims that Zimmerman was the one doing the beating. Claims of Martin yelling for help make no sense since he had not one injury inflicted by Zimmerman other than the gun shot wound and the screams for help occured before the shot.

The problem here is that when you look at all the evidence the only way I can see a person convicting him is if they are remain willfully ignorant or are prejudiced themselves.
As such I really recommend you dig deeper, start with a blank slate and look at all the evidence again without condemning him first.
Because quite honestly I could see you doing exactly what Zimmerman did leading up to the shooting.

And for the record, he owned a gun because an animal welfare officer recommended a gun over pepper spray after Zimmerman repeatedly complained of a loose pitbull in the area.
He was not on patrol with a gun as some reports have stated. He was off duty and going home.
There is also evidence based on Zimmermans description of the location of his truck and his position during his call to police so they would meet him there, all pointing to the fact that Martin did run off towards home then came back to confront Zimmerman.

I could go on. Much of it would be covering mistakes the media had put out or that others have claimed that don't line up with the evidence.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I just don't understand Florida law.

There's no reason that you should. Florida law is, evidently, broken as shit. I have a law degree, and the law in this case flies in the face of everything I was taught about how criminal law should operate. It's counter-intuitive, irrational, and unjust.

[The Supreme Canuck]

As such I really believe Zimmerman is being used as a scapegoat for the ills this country still has.
Sure Florida law has issues, don't condemn a man because you hate Florida law.

If Florida's laws were rational, Zimmerman would be in jail. He only got off because the broken law allowed him to. Ignore all the racial stuff: the fact remains that had Zimmerman done this where the law was not broken, he would have been guilty of second degree murder.

If this had happened down the street from me, Zimmerman would be in jail for life.

Why shouldn't I be pissed off both at the law that allowed this and at an individual who, under my legal system (which I consider to be correct in this matter), is a murderer?

[FZR1KG]

As such I really believe Zimmerman is being used as a scapegoat for the ills this country still has.
Sure Florida law has issues, don't condemn a man because you hate Florida law.

If Florida's laws were rational, Zimmerman would be in jail. He only got off because the broken law allowed him to. Ignore all the racial stuff: the fact remains that had Zimmerman done this where the law was not broken, he would have been guilty of second degree murder.

If this had happened down the street from me, Zimmerman would be in jail for life.

Why shouldn't I be pissed off both at the law that allowed this and at an individual who, under my legal system (which I consider to be correct in this matter), is a murderer?

So if a guy jumps you and is beating you up, you had a firearm on you and it is your right to carry a firearm, your attacker see's it and says, "now you're going to die motherfucker", you manage to shoot him instead, you want to be guilty of second degree murder?

I'm struggling to see why.

[geonuc]

I have a law degree, and the law in this case flies in the face of everything I was taught about how criminal law should operate. It's counter-intuitive, irrational, and unjust.

ditto