Its the Russians...

[vendic]

"Not the Republican party or any Republican politicians"

A private citizen who identifies as a Republican, is not the same as a presidential candidate, or the DNC, or a government department, the FBI.

But let me follow the logic here, the Hillary campaign, the DNC and the FBI can now use the excuse that because any person identifying as Republican has done something so its ok for them to do it too.

I'm not about liberal conspiracies. I do hold all parties accountable for the same things. Last I checked, the Democrats were all over the dossier and Russian collusion. Now that it seems that they had a big hand in funding it is no big deal. Move along. Our bad. It wasn't the Republicans, it was us and that makes it no big deal.

I don't think greatly of the Republican party either. But I have noticed that lately, everything about them is portrayed as evil. Trump is Hitler, no, he is worse. People are writing this shit. By the same token, anything the left does is justified. Commuted electoral fraud, off. No problem. Its their party. Don't know why people are even upset about it.

Want me to stop pointing out the failings of the Democrats, lets start with the basic far fetched notion that half the country are not Nazi loving, gay hating mysoginistic white supremisists.
Lately it seems like getting anyone on the left to even entertain this notion is impossible. Anytime I discuss this with people on the left, it's like I get compartmentalized in that group. Its not just the left, the right does the same shit too, only I am a commie loving anti gun libtard.

As usual, to people on the left, I am a Nazi. To people on the right, I am a communist. There is no middle ground, yet the majority of the population are independents. What that means is Democrats think 75% of the USA are Nazis while Republicans think 75% of the USA are communists. If you read both sides of the news services, suddenly those figures make sense.
(Percentages calculated based on about 25% of the population identifying as Democrats and the same for Republicans. They are not correct but close enough to make the point without researching and posting on a phone)

Got to go. Raining and we're losing power. So into the rain this commie Nazi mysoginistic libtard goes. Water and electricity, in bare feet. Ah life is good.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I don't know if Trump colluded with the Russkies, or if is an unwitting pawn, or just a stroke of good luck for them and the Chinese. But, judging from his foreign policy. He's about the worst thing that could happen to the rest of the world right now. His so-called "America First" BS is just weakening the position of the US internationally (IMHO that is NOT A GOOD THING, either for the US or for us greasy furriners) and it doesn't look like it's going to benefit "Joe Average" in the US at all. In the meantime, the vast majority of the people of the US is too busy either arguing on whether NFL players should take a knee or not, or on who's the Most Christian Christian or who's the Purest SJW. One thing I always admired from people in the US was that their Pragmatism prevailed over their Parochialism. HOWEVER, these days, it looks like Pragmatism is something that seems to be sorely missing right now there.

[vendic]

I pretty much agree except I don't see it as a bad thing that he is so clearly American interests first. Its really the same foreign policy that the USA always had, just that the World liked and fell for the "beacon of democracy" shit.
I prefer the harsh reality than feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

That doesn't make the USA evil. It just makes them the same as everyone else: flawed. So the World gets a reality check. The USA is not a beacon of light. It reminds me of when kids realise Santa isn't real and there is no Easter bunny.

Wait till the majority of Americans realise that too.
We live in interesting times.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I pretty much agree except I don't see it as a bad thing that he is so clearly American interests first. Its really the same foreign policy that the USA always had, just that the World liked and fell for the "beacon of democracy" shit.
I prefer the harsh reality than feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

That doesn't make the USA evil. It just makes them the same as everyone else: flawed. So the World gets a reality check. The USA is not a beacon of light. It reminds me of when kids realise Santa isn't real and there is no Easter bunny.

Wait till the majority of Americans realise that too.
We live in interesting times.

I most definitely disagree. His current course is going to start a (possibly Nuclear) Arms race in Asia, or worse. THAT is NOT good for anyone. As for US hypocrisy, sure they've done it plenty of times. There have also been plenty of times they have fucked up. But the way things are going we're going to see during these "interesting times" what happens IF the Chinese suddenly decide they can play "The Monroe Doctrine" bit in Asia. I'll bet you'll see two sides form immediately: one with China and its satellite countries in one side, one with India, Japan and (if they are able to control their traditional dislike of Japan) South Korea in the other. And Russia pushing both sides against the middle. Where IF the US is going to stick to its "America First" thing, is going to leave Australia (which is going to be a lot closer to that mess than everyone else) to fend by itself. Sure, the US could get overbearing with its "Beacon of Democracy" thing, but for a rather long time they al least tried to live up to it. Even if they screwed up many times, even if many times they did the opposite of what they preached. The last time we had a "Reality Check" was in 1914, it didn't end well. And that was BEFORE There were things like Air Forces and Nuclear Weapons. This time is going to hurt a lot more.

[vendic]

I never wrote anything about US hypocrisy. Just that its foreign policy has always been US interests first.

Most governments already understand this. Particularly non allies. It will make little difference to them decision wise.

As far as the USA holding the World safe from nuclear war. Yeah. Don't buy it. That however is a different and far longer discussion.

R.e. Australia in some fictitious war. The USA will bleed Oz like it was any unit of their army if it was determined it would be in their best interests. I've always understood that and accepted it. If our government had any brains they would too and plan for it accordingly.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I never wrote anything about US hypocrisy. Just that its foreign policy has always been US interests first.

Fine, You said that the US puts its interests first but (before Trump) claimed to do otherwise. It was me that said that the US was being hypocritical by doing that. Happy?

Most governments already understand this. Particularly non allies. It will make little difference to them decision wise.

Hell, Even I know that, it just so happens that the alternative is not better at all. Remember, we've had the Chinese poking around here for a while. If I have to choose between the two (SURPRISE WE WILL ALL HAVE TO SOONER OR LATER) I can assure you that the US is the least bad of the two

As far as the USA holding the World safe from nuclear war. Yeah. Don't buy it. That however is a different and far longer discussion.

Then lets just say that the 50 years between 1945 and 1995 could have been a lot lot worse till you want to discuss it then

R.e. Australia in some fictitious war. The USA will bleed Oz like it was any unit of their army if it was determined it would be in their best interests. I've always understood that and accepted it. If our government had any brains they would too and plan for it accordingly.

Dude, I'd bet good money that your government planned for it and decided that the alternative was worse.

[vendic]

I never wrote anything about US hypocrisy. Just that its foreign policy has always been US interests first.

Fine, You said that the US puts its interests first but (before Trump) claimed to do otherwise. It was me that said that the US was being hypocritical by doing that. Happy?

Maybe I wasn't clear. The US has always put its interests first. The only difference now is that Trump is straight up forward about it so even diehards will see it.

1945-1995 all depends on your pov. It would be simple if there was ever only one of those, but life is an ass so there are many. You know what they say about opinions?

Our government plans to have the UK save us. We can only do so much with one air force pilot and a sniper with 5 bullets. lol

[Rommie]

Mannafort arrested and charged- https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

Totally not a Republican or affiliated with Trump. /s

[vendic]

And if he is guilty, I hope he gets a long spell in prison. Just like I wish anyone else would get, regardless of their political leanings.

Hopefully they have good evidence. As we are all aware, arrests don't make a person guilty. Nor do charges and not does a conviction. Which is why I wrote that I hope they have good evidence.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The US has always put its interests first. The only difference now is that Trump is straight up forward about it so even diehards will see it.

Well, My point is that Trump is saying that he's putting the interests of the US first (something we agree that the US has ALWAYS done) but he really is not. Do you know who thinks that the rest of the world benefits disproportionately from the alleged "largesse" of the US? His own supporters. Why do I think he really is not? Let's start with the TPP, that treaty would have virtually guaranteed the pre-emminence of the US in Asia. And he turned it away. Was he saving "American Jobs" by turning it away and forcing US Companies not to outsource to India or China? VERY UNLIKELY, that treaty would not help much with that.

Want another example? The deal with Iran, he complains that it sucks, do you think he can do better? he doesn't even want to staff his own State Department. Hell, good or bad deal, Iran was complying with it. And in a temper tantrum he refused to "certify" it and told congress to deal with it. Right, good or bad deal the Iran mess was at least winding down, now it's heating up again while at the same time the Korean mess gets worse (and despite it all it's all on him, was there any need to go nuts on Twitter, curtailing his own secretary of state over North Korea?)

1945-1995 all depends on your pov. It would be simple if there was ever only one of those, but life is an ass so there are many. You know what they say about opinions?

Well, my pov is from a country that is been in an area of the world that the US considers its backyard. And that thanks to the Cold War had to see plenty of Right Wing Dictators supported by the US because they thought that way they could stop the spread of Communism around here. A lot of people in SouthEast Asia had it a lot worse than we did, and I'm sure that they have plenty of reasons to dislike the US and its foreign policy more than even the reddest of "commies" around here. Yet, again. I think it was better than Nukes going off in your country (or even a neighboring one).

Those damned things are so awful that even the scientists that developed them (and a lot of them had quite a motivation to do so, being Jewish during WWII) ended up being against them. And in that POV tends towards the absolute. Devastation from which you can't recover really can do marvels for your POV.Yes, it's extremely ironic that the only country to ever use them in war now makes a big fuss about not using them even as it stocked over 30000 of them at one time. But hey, if you think life is messy, from what I've seen, International Politics makes life seem simple

Our government plans to have the UK save us. We can only do so much with one air force pilot and a sniper with 5 bullets. lol

Well, if your government decides it's time to implement conscription again I guess it means the UK rescinded the deal

[SciFiFisher]

I pretty much agree except I don't see it as a bad thing that he is so clearly American interests first. Its really the same foreign policy that the USA always had, just that the World liked and fell for the "beacon of democracy" shit.
I prefer the harsh reality than feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

That doesn't make the USA evil. It just makes them the same as everyone else: flawed. So the World gets a reality check. The USA is not a beacon of light. It reminds me of when kids realise Santa isn't real and there is no Easter bunny.

Wait till the majority of Americans realise that too.
We live in interesting times.

I disagree that the "Beacon of Democracy" was ALL BS. The U.S. has been self centered. We often make decisions based on our own self interests. To be honest I don't think being interested in protecting your own national security and interests is wrong for a nation to engage in. In some instances those decisions may be wrong or even textbook illegal or "evil". BUT, we have also consistently made policy decisions and interfered in things around the world based on humanitarian values. We are one of a handful of nations that strive to lift up other nations.

The Peace Corps was not started by the USSR. When Haiti was devastated by hurricanes it was the U.S. that responded with a majority of the aid.

While we may not a huge beacon of light we do try to do good. Flawed we may be but we are a work in progress.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Mannafort arrested and charged- https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

Totally not a Republican or affiliated with Trump. /s

This is much more interesting if you ask me.

Trump Campaign Adviser Met With Russian to Discuss ‘Dirt’ on Clinton

[Rommie]

Yeah, that revelation wasn't out yet when I posted. What a morning!

[SciFiFisher]

Yes, Papadopoulos may be the link or one of several links that *might* connect Trump, the Russians, and et al to the hacked DNC emails. I am pretty sure that no one really believes that Wiki-leaks acted as anything more than an intermediary for the entire thing at this point.

But, given the three indictments released today, and the severity of the charges, I suspect we can expect more indictments. The sad thing is that anyone who believes that this will bring Trump down or cause him to be impeached is probably in for a very sad awakening. The best example we have historically is Nixon. And he walked away *virtually* unscathed. Yes, he did have to resign. But, that was the sum total of his punishment. A number of smaller fish did wind up serving some very short jail sentences. Trump will have no qualms or remorse about throwing anyone under the bus.

[vendic]

I pretty much agree except I don't see it as a bad thing that he is so clearly American interests first. Its really the same foreign policy that the USA always had, just that the World liked and fell for the "beacon of democracy" shit.
I prefer the harsh reality than feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

That doesn't make the USA evil. It just makes them the same as everyone else: flawed. So the World gets a reality check. The USA is not a beacon of light. It reminds me of when kids realise Santa isn't real and there is no Easter bunny.

Wait till the majority of Americans realise that too.
We live in interesting times.

I disagree that the "Beacon of Democracy" was ALL BS. The U.S. has been self centered. We often make decisions based on our own self interests. To be honest I don't think being interested in protecting your own national security and interests is wrong for a nation to engage in. In some instances those decisions may be wrong or even textbook illegal or "evil". BUT, we have also consistently made policy decisions and interfered in things around the world based on humanitarian values. We are one of a handful of nations that strive to lift up other nations.

The Peace Corps was not started by the USSR. When Haiti was devastated by hurricanes it was the U.S. that responded with a majority of the aid.

While we may not a huge beacon of light we do try to do good. Flawed we may be but we are a work in progress.

I think US foreign policy can be summed up this: "Don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining".
Did they do good? Sure. If they didn't it would be a clear case of pure evil at work.

R.e. foreign aid. Per capita, last I checked they weren't number one. So no beacon of light there.

No country, no party, no ideology is completely goodnor completely evil. Imho, it pays to understand where they aren't and where they are.

[Rommie]

Yes, Papadopoulos may be the link or one of several links that *might* connect Trump, the Russians, and et al to the hacked DNC emails. I am pretty sure that no one really believes that Wiki-leaks acted as anything more than an intermediary for the entire thing at this point.

But, given the three indictments released today, and the severity of the charges, I suspect we can expect more indictments. The sad thing is that anyone who believes that this will bring Trump down or cause him to be impeached is probably in for a very sad awakening. The best example we have historically is Nixon. And he walked away *virtually* unscathed. Yes, he did have to resign. But, that was the sum total of his punishment. A number of smaller fish did wind up serving some very short jail sentences. Trump will have no qualms or remorse about throwing anyone under the bus.

My understanding though was that Nixon was never impeached because he resigned once it was clear it was going to happen, no?

[Swift]

My understanding though was that Nixon was never impeached because he resigned once it was clear it was going to happen, no?

Your understanding is correct. Nixon resigned before he could be impeached, thought the House Judiciary Committee had passed the Articles of Impeachment, which meant the next step would be debate and a vote of the full House on the Impeachment. IIRC, the evidence that Nixon had ordered the coverup of the Watergate break-in were overwhelming, including his own tapes on it. And Nixon had been named an "unindicted co-conspirator" in the conspiracy and obstruction of justice case against the others charged in the coverup (a lot of the charges revolved around the coverup of the break-in and other illegal activities of CREEP, including lying to the FBI, lying to the Special Prosecutor, obstruction of justice, etc.) and not so much the break-in and other illegal activities.

About a week later Nixon resigned, and Ford gave him a full pardon within a couple of weeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Watergate_scandal

The best example we have historically is Nixon. And he walked away *virtually* unscathed. Yes, he did have to resign. But, that was the sum total of his punishment. A number of smaller fish did wind up serving some very short jail sentences. Trump will have no qualms or remorse about throwing anyone under the bus.

I kind of agree and kind of don't. Yes, as far as jail time, or any other kind of judicial punishment, Nixon was virtually unscathed. But he was basically shunned after that, none of the accolades of a former President, and given his huge ego, I think that hurt him the most. Don't get me wrong, Nixon gets none of my pity, he deserved to be shunned.

But I think you are right, this is not going to happen to Trump. First, as you say, he will happily throw everyone under the bus (Nixon would have too). But second, Trump seems to be a completely different kind of manager. Nixon was a complete micro-manager - he would not have let any of this stuff go on without his express approval, particularly when it got to the cover-up stages (which involved White House staff, not flunkies for the RNC). Not only did Nixon know it all, he approved it all.

Trump doesn't work that way (IMO). He is the kind of guy who says "go build me a pretty gold hotel in Cleveland, and I better like it when it is done". But he doesn't approve the drawing; he doesn't give a rat's ass about the details, or even the broad plan, as long as his name is on it. When it is done, if it is pretty, he takes all the credit for it; "No one builds pretty gold hotels better than me". If it is a complete flop, goes bankrupt, has 12 lawsuits against it, and is declared a superfund site, he had nothing to do with it.

Look at all his campaign promises about what he was going to do: repeal and replace the ACA, tax reform, wall building, etc. But neither he nor the White House actually even tried to craft any of that. Trump told Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell "Hey, go make me a ACA repeal bill". If it worked, it was going to be Trump's victory. When it went down multiple times in flames, Trump was "Ryan and McConnell screwed up; I didn't create their crappy bill".

I suspect the whole Russia-campaign thing will go down the exact same way.

[vendic]

I pretty much agree with that assessment. While it makes him an asshole, it doesn't make him guilty. By the same token, I like it where the person at the top needs to approve of things so they don't have an easy out. The old Roman falling on one's sword type thing but brought into the modern age.
That has been a big complaint of mine for decades now. No one actually takes responsibility. The closest we get is GW saying, "I take full responsibility", but taking responsibility without consequences is simply smoke and mirror bullshit. That really missed me off when he pulled that stunt.

[SciFiFisher]

Yes, Papadopoulos may be the link or one of several links that *might* connect Trump, the Russians, and et al to the hacked DNC emails. I am pretty sure that no one really believes that Wiki-leaks acted as anything more than an intermediary for the entire thing at this point.

But, given the three indictments released today, and the severity of the charges, I suspect we can expect more indictments. The sad thing is that anyone who believes that this will bring Trump down or cause him to be impeached is probably in for a very sad awakening. The best example we have historically is Nixon. And he walked away *virtually* unscathed. Yes, he did have to resign. But, that was the sum total of his punishment. A number of smaller fish did wind up serving some very short jail sentences. Trump will have no qualms or remorse about throwing anyone under the bus.

My understanding though was that Nixon was never impeached because he resigned once it was clear it was going to happen, no?

No, he wasn't impeached. But, once he resigned he lost his "presidential immunity" and could have been indicted, tried, and convicted for some of his actions. Many in the country were not satisfied with his resignation and were openly supporting charging Nixon for crimes committed over Watergate and in/around those activities. President Ford pardoned Nixon for any and all crimes he committed as President. The common legal thinking is that a pardon requires a crime and/or guilt. This is a pretty decent synopsis

[SciFiFisher]

[ No country, no party, no ideology is completely goodnor completely evil. Imho, it pays to understand where they aren't and where they are.

Except you didn't offer any of that in your statement. You flat out said that the U.S. was never altruistic in it's motives for being a "Beacon of Democracy". In fact, you said it was total bullshit and that you preferred it when people understand that. I believe you said it was

feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

. Thus implying that the U.S. has never really done anything all that good or all that worthwhile. Not really totally evil, but a real waste of everybody's time with all this hoodwink BS about being the good guys and trying to help people.

I merely offered the opinion that you were wrong. The U.S. has done some good. And that it was not ALL

feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

. I have served in an organization that every year spends millions of dollars and send thousands of people to places all over the world. We build bridges, we build infrastructure, we provide free medical care, immunizations, surgery, and more. We teach people how to vaccinate their herd animals, and much much more. We never ask for bribes, kickbacks, or preferential contracts to build hotels. And we never once ask those governments or people to pay us back. That organization is the U.S. Army. I also know for a fact that the Marines, Navy, Air Force, and Public Health Corps all do the same thing.

And we do that because we really do believe that we have decent reason for helping people all over the world. So spare me your "The U.S. Fucking Sucks Because It Is Full Of Evil Capitalists" rant. I happen to be very aware that my country is over run by a bunch of egotistical assholes that I would be happy to put in front of a firing squad if I were king of the world.

[vendic]

[ No country, no party, no ideology is completely goodnor completely evil. Imho, it pays to understand where they aren't and where they are.

Except you didn't offer any of that in your statement.

Sure I did. I specifically wrote that it doesn't make them evil. Then I further cleared it up later in what you quoted. I am on a phone. It has a small kb. I have big fingers. I have been told often enough not to write walls of text. So I at this point have to assume people see where I'm coming from without providing GPS cordinates and 1/2 second angular headings. As mentioned, its implied, writing things is already hard. If I have to write like I am also addressing a hostile audience, got to be honest, I won't be writing much at all, if at all.

That's the best I can offer. Either accept that I need to make short cuts in posting and give me some credit that I think I might have left standing after 10 years here, or let me know that I am completely wasting my time in any communication on this forum as it is now a hostile environment. Where anything I write will be assumed like I'm an anonymous right wing conspiracy theorist.

Hey, maybe it is me. I can't seem to get anyone to understand my points. At least online anyway. I seem to have no problem in person. Though I must admit, I don't really talk with anyone in real life anymore other than the wife and the mil. After a year, I might have completely lost my mind... Hahajgkfekt heh heh oohhhh no wind...no wind nice. Wind bad. Waves bad. Drinking water good...beer bad

[geonuc]

That has been a big complaint of mine for decades now. No one actually takes responsibility. The closest we get is GW saying, "I take full responsibility", but taking responsibility without consequences is simply smoke and mirror bullshit. That really missed me off when he pulled that stunt.

See, this is where you into trouble with us, saying utterly stupid shit like this (and please don't blame it on your keypad).

NO ONE takes responsibility? The CLOSEST is Bush? Where the fuck were you during eight years of the Obama administration? You may take issue with this or that thing he did, with this or that thing he wasn't completely up front about, but for fuck's sake, the man ran the most morally, ethically responsible major government administration in the history of the world.

[geonuc]

And I'm completely in agreement with Fisher. I'm not a flag-waving patriot who sees no wrong with the US, now or historically (particularly historically) but again, for fuck's sake, the US has done more good for the world than any country in the history of the world. I was part of it.

More to Fisher's point, my father was in the US Army for 28 years. Was he out there oppressing people? Fuck no - he was building roads and bridges for people who needed roads and bridges. You know, so their lives could be just a little bit easier.

Please don't preach about how the US acts only in it's self-interest, making them just short of evil in your eyes. Of course we act in our self interest but in case it hadn't occurred to you, the majority of American governments - and Americans - have concluded that it is in our self interest to have a stable world where people aren't fucking starving or dying of horrible diseases. Where tyrannical governments don't threaten them.

The US isn't perfect, has never been perfect. And it might not be the 'best' country in the world in terms of ethics. There are plenty of decent people in the world who have set up decent, ethical societies but none have had the power and the capability to wreak such complete destruction or suffering on the world as the US is capable of but chooses not to.

You can't get anyone to understand your points? Consider maybe we do understand and we just don't agree with them. I know I don't.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Of course we act in our self interest but in case it hadn't occurred to you, the majority of American governments - and Americans - have concluded that it is in our self interest to have a stable world where people aren't fucking starving or dying of horrible diseases. Where tyrannical governments don't threaten them.

Here in Bananaland we have always been split between those like my old man who happened to hate the US and its policies with a passion, and those who think the US was some sort of Nirvana (and guess who's been the majority for the last, say......... 40 years?). I have always liked to think the US was (with all its warts) more like what you're describing. My father would sometimes refer to Panamanians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans and even Canadians as "Sepoys" (fancy way to call them "bootlickers") to the US. Well, call me a "sepoy" if you like, but, as I was once said to Yosh, I think that the epitome of "American" is supposed to be a pragmatist with a sense of humor.

[geonuc]

Of course we act in our self interest but in case it hadn't occurred to you, the majority of American governments - and Americans - have concluded that it is in our self interest to have a stable world where people aren't fucking starving or dying of horrible diseases. Where tyrannical governments don't threaten them.

Here in Bananaland we have always been split between those like my old man who happened to hate the US and its policies with a passion, and those who think the US was some sort of Nirvana (and guess who's been the majority for the last, say......... 40 years?). I have always liked to think the US was (with all its warts) more like what you're describing. My father would sometimes refer to Panamanians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans and even Canadians as "Sepoys" (fancy way to call them "bootlickers") to the US. Well, call me a "sepoy" if you like, but, as I was once said to Yosh, I think that the epitome of "American" is supposed to be a pragmatist with a sense of humor.

That might be a good description of us Yanks. Most of us. Some of us.

A good friend of mine has a way of expressing that. Whenever he, or one of his friends, is bitching about some slight or inconvenience, he likes add append the hashtag #firstworldproblems.

We see ominous things coming out of Washington these days and yearn for a do-over with the last election, knowing that whatever faults the 'other candidate' had, she would have at least continued the legacy of the last administration for the most part. Certainly in tone and compassion.

However we as Americans have screwed up and are screwing up the country, it remains a pretty awesome place to live when compared to the great majority of the world. Especially if you're white. And I think that while we have a long way to go and are in fact currently losing ground, it's still a better place than most for most non-white people as well.