So... Florida and Zimmerman, huh?

[Rebis]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any more interesting (and I was about to take a media break):

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/new-talking-point-trayvon-martin-was-real-bigot-because-he-thought-zimmerman-was-gay/67235/

Homophobia! Gay bashing! He might be a rapist!

Wow.

[FZR1KG]

Ok, I'm curious.
What should he have done under those circumstances.
He followed the officers direction, stopped pursuing the guy and the guy came up to him when the fatal exchange happened.
He was obviously beaten, Martin was not.

At this point should Zimmerman decide to die so he was right in the eyes of the law because from what I'm reading he was guilty of crimes so abysmal that he should have let himself be killed.
So I have to ask, what could he have done?

I'm not being nasty about it, I'm genuinely curious what was expected of him at that point to stay within the law and not get a murder conviction?

[SciFiFisher]

Ok, I'm curious.
What should he have done under those circumstances.
He followed the officers direction, stopped pursuing the guy and the guy came up to him when the fatal exchange happened.
He was obviously beaten, Martin was not.

At this point should Zimmerman decide to die so he was right in the eyes of the law because from what I'm reading he was guilty of crimes so abysmal that he should have let himself be killed.
So I have to ask, what could he have done?

I'm not being nasty about it, I'm genuinely curious what was expected of him at that point to stay within the law and not get a murder conviction?

Based on what I have been reading and being told. George Zimmerman had no right to do anything except just keep driving when he saw Martin. He should have ignored him because he was doing nothing wrong. If he felt compelled to call the police that is ALL he should have done. Call the police and then just drive away. If he couldn't do that he should NEVER have gotten out of his vehicle. He should have merely kept the police apprised of Martins movements without ever making contact.

Because he did not do these things his claim of self defense is suspect as he placed himself in the situation and provoked it. Also, it seems that many people do not believe that Zimmerman is telling the truth. Therefore his claim of self defense is null and void. In essence they don't believe it was self defense.

You are asking them to assume that it was a case of Martin beating up Zimmerman. If they can't do that then your question is difficult to answer. Because the obvious answer when someone is beating you up is that you defend yourself with any means possible to stop the beating. But, if you start with the assumption that Martin was the victim in this case then Zimmerman is guilty of murder, not self defense.

[SciFi Chick]

You are asking them to assume that it was a case of Martin beating up Zimmerman. If they can't do that then your question is difficult to answer. Because the obvious answer when someone is beating you up is that you defend yourself with any means possible to stop the beating. But, if you start with the assumption that Martin was the victim in this case then Zimmerman is guilty of murder, not self defense.

We're not asking them to assume anything. The evidence points to Martin beating Zimmerman up without getting hit himself. So, from what I can tell, the fact that Zimmerman got out of his car (oh my god), was enough to make Martin feel like he was completely threatened and should take violent action. I do not understand this insistence that the second Zimmerman stepped out of his car, he is inviting being attacked, but yet, he is the bad guy. I'm seriously confused by this.

[SciFiFisher]

You are asking them to assume that it was a case of Martin beating up Zimmerman. If they can't do that then your question is difficult to answer. Because the obvious answer when someone is beating you up is that you defend yourself with any means possible to stop the beating. But, if you start with the assumption that Martin was the victim in this case then Zimmerman is guilty of murder, not self defense.

We're not asking them to assume anything. The evidence points to Martin beating Zimmerman up without getting hit himself. So, from what I can tell, the fact that Zimmerman got out of his car (oh my god), was enough to make Martin feel like he was completely threatened and should take violent action. I do not understand this insistence that the second Zimmerman stepped out of his car, he is inviting being attacked, but yet, he is the bad guy. I'm seriously confused by this.

Apparently, it is a crime or at least a serious character defect to assume that a suspiciously dressed person is engaged in criminal activity. If that person is also black it is racial profiling. If you are guilty of racial profiling then in essence anything you do from that point on is wrong no matter what. So, no matter what Zimmerman was wrong.

The second issue is the evidence. I have watched a few of the talking heads in passing and in essence a large bulk of the talking heads are saying that no one believes the evidence that was used to support Zimmerman's claim that Martin was the aggressor and was beating him severely or otherwise. They believe that Zimmerman took a blow to the nose (and not a very hard one at that) and they question whether it was really a blow vs an accidental bump. Zimmerman then stepped back, pulled his gun out, and blew poor innocent Travon Martin away. Zimmerman began to craft his self defense story in such a way that it would support his claim of self defense in the days that followed.

Everything else flows from those two assumptions: Zimmerman profiled Martin because he was a young black man and he gunned him down with minimal provocation. Therefore, the jury decision was flawed. Florida law is flawed. The process is flawed. And there is no justice for Travon Martin.

My contention is that there are only two people who really know what happened that night. And Martin isn't talking. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who seem convinced that Zimmerman's account is a lie.

[FZR1KG]

I agree with you Fisher. I was one of those that fell for the media B.S.
Even after the verdict I was still sure he was guilty.
Then I decided to not use media reports.
Lo and behold, I get a different perspective.

If you listen to the call Zimmerman made, he was in his car initially.
He then said Martin was approaching the car.
Then Martin ran.
Zimmerman got out of the car to follow.
The dispatch officer noticed the car door close and Zimmermans breathing changing and asked, "are you pursuing him"
Zimmerman said yes.
The officer says, "we don't need you to do that".
Zimmerman says, "ok" and stops following. His breathing slowly goes back to normal as he continues talking and answering questions regarding the location the police should meet him at.

Martin was about 100m from home when he started running.
Zimmerman was on the phone for at least another minute talking with the officer.

Sprint runners can do 100m in about 10 seconds.
At the age of 14 I could run it in about 14 Seconds.
Even a slow jog would have Martin home if he had decided to go home while Zimmerman was still on the phone with the police.

That means he didn't run home. He didn't jog home.

Zimmerman claims Martin jumped him as he was going back to his car.
I see no reason to doubt this considering the distance he was from his house and obviously did not go home while Zimmerman was on the phone with police.

So I'll ask the question again, what was it that Zimmerman did that was such an abysmal crime that deserved him being attacked for provocation and didn't entitle him to defend himself against a beating?
Evidence shows Zimmerman was beaten, Martin did the beating, Martin had no injuries other than bruising Martins ring finger with his face.

Did Zimmerman do something so bad that he deserved such a beating?
I say no.
Did he do something to provoke Martin that was so bad that it compelled Martin to return after running away and could easily have made it home?
I say no.

Zimmerman thought he was a possible burglar in an area where there were recent burglaries.
That's really a huge crime apparently.
Martin thought Zimmerman was a crazy ass cracker and came back to confront him.

Both men thought the other was something they were not.
A fight ensued and the one been beaten up shot the guy beating him.
Pretty much all I see here.

No race, no malice, no abysmal crime committed by Zimmerman.
Just a stupid set of circumstances that led to a life endangering confrontation and one guy defended himself against the other who was on top of him beating him.

I still fail to see why he should be charged with murder when he committed no crime and was defending himself.
We had a case in Australia where a guy was beating up another guy that ran a pizza shop.
He shot the guy and got off because he was in fear of his life.
I fail to see the difference. Just a change in scenery.

TSC and geonuc, I know you have both said you have law degree's and this is not how things should work, we also have a law professor saying that the prosecution was behaving downright immoral in this case. He never stated that the law was unjust, certainly not in this case just hat the prosecution behaviour war fucked up.

I can't for the life of me see why a man defending himself against an aggressor needs to be charged with murder.

[FZR1KG]

Here's a transcript of the actual call Zimmerman made: transcript

Can someone tell me what was so abysmal in that?

[FZR1KG]

Here's a case for yosh (and anyone else) to read.
It happened in NY state in your neck of the woods.
The difference, a big black guy with martial arts training shot a 16yr old small framed white kid and killed him because he felt threatened after he confronted the boy and his friend because he suspected them of trying to steal from a car across the road from his residence.

Yes he got off.
No calls that the laws of NY are screwed, no calls of racism, no riots after an all white jury found him not guilty.

I specifically used this site because Yosh has used it before though its got several other news services covering it as well.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/ ... black.html

What this guy did was far worse IMHO. He came out, confronted them with a pistol then shot one when he apparently didn't comply.

Where's the outrage?

[geonuc]

TSC and geonuc, I know you have both said you have law degree's and this is not how things should work, we also have a law professor saying that the prosecution was behaving downright immoral in this case. He never stated that the law was unjust, certainly not in this case just hat the prosecution behaviour war fucked up.

I can't for the life of me see why a man defending himself against an aggressor needs to be charged with murder.

If you went to law school, you probably wouldn't need to wonder about that last point. But I'm not going to argue it.

As to TSC and I 'saying' we have law degrees (I would hope you would take our word for that) and not liking the Florida law, that is a wholly separate issue from how the prosecution, and the police, handled this case. Your law professor was apparently commenting on the latter, not the former.

[SciFi Chick]

If you went to law school, you probably wouldn't need to wonder about that last point. But I'm not going to argue it.

As to TSC and I 'saying' we have law degrees (I would hope you would take our word for that) and not liking the Florida law, that is a wholly separate issue from how the prosecution, and the police, handled this case. Your law professor was apparently commenting on the latter, not the former.

Of course he's not suggesting you don't really have law degrees, though I can see how it might look that way from your point of view. He was really tired and not communicating as well as he normally does. I know him well enough to know what he meant though. What he meant is why do two people with law degrees automatically think that this guy deserves to be in prison? You are the only two on this board with law degrees, and you say this like it's obvious. You also say that if FZ went to law school, he wouldn't need to wonder about that last point. Does that mean it's so complicated it can't be explained to those of us who didn't go to law school?

Neither of us is attacking you or TSC. We are genuinely curious about your insight regarding this case because we've gotten rather obsessed with it over the last couple of days, and we honestly can't see anything but an innocent man defending himself. I couldn't wait to wake up this morning and see your or TSC's response, so you can imagine my disappointment that FZ's wording made you unwilling to answer. I do hope you'll reconsider.

[pumpkinpi]

Regardless of any current Florida law, or whether or not the charges brought against him were appropriate, do you think Zimmerman should be held accountable at all for killing Martin?

[FZR1KG]

Pretty much what the wife said.
I'm not challenging your degree's, I'm asking why you two both think what you do when there are so many other lawyers that don't.

As for Florida laws, thats why I brought up the case in NY for Yosh and anyone else to read.
Its far worse than the Zimmerman case and the guy got off.
He was black the kid was white, he was bigger and trained in martial arts and came at them with a loaded gun.

So if Floridas law is screwed then NY's law must be too.
But, no one seems to be saying that NY law is screwed up.

[SciFi Chick]

Regardless of any current Florida law, or whether or not the charges brought against him were appropriate, do you think Zimmerman should be held accountable at all for killing Martin?

No. I think it was self defense, plain and simple. I'm pretty certain he had no intention of shooting him even as he was getting beaten, right up until the moment Martin saw his gun and said, "Now you're going to die motherfucker." I realize this is Zimmerman's testimony, but if fits all the circumstances. He was just lying there yelling for help for almost a minute. He wasn't even fighting back.

[FZR1KG]

Regardless of any current Florida law, or whether or not the charges brought against him were appropriate, do you think Zimmerman should be held accountable at all for killing Martin?

From what I have been reading probably not.
Everything I see leads to him doing what the police asked him to do.
He is a neighborhood watch person so he felt it was his responsibility to report suspicious behaviour.
Which he did.
He did so while in his car. Martin started approaching his car and he told the officer that he was approaching.
Then Martin ran, which the officer responded to keep an eye on him.
At that point Zimmerman got out of his car to follow the command.
The officer noticed he left his car to do so and asked if he was following him.
Zimmerman replied yes and the officer said "we don't need you to do that"
So he said ok and stopped.
Zimmerman was on the phone for about a minute and thirty seconds after that point talking calmly to the officer so was not running after Martin.

Martins home was not that far, he could easily had made it home had he decided to go home.
But he obviously didn't.

After that we have mainly Zimmermans account of what happened and the evidence all points to him telling the story pretty accurately.

The thing is I see no reason to dispute his claim that Martin jumped him and was on top of him beating him.
At that point its a case of self defense. He claimed he screamed for help repeatedly and no one came.

I'm not sure why people are thinking he needs to lay there with a man on top of him beating him up without defending himself.
From reading peoples views it appears that he did something so horrible that he deserved to be either severely beaten or die.
I can't agree.

Most of these views are based on incorrect reporting and speculation as to Zimmermans character being racist combined with ignorance regarding the stand your ground law in Florida.
For example, the defense did not use the stand your ground law to make their case. They made the case solely on self defense.
Much of the comments online go like this:
Zimmerman profiled a black kid and chased him to the point where there was a confrontation.
The kid threw a punch and Zimmerman shot him because he was a racist and he planned to kill him.

The problem is he didn't pursue Martin of his own accord, he was asked what Martin was up to and to answer that question he got out of his vehicle.
The officer noticed he was following and asked him to stop, so he did.
A full minute and a half went by after he stopped pursuit during which time Zimmerman was on the phone with the police.
Martin could have been easily home in that time.
But he didn't go home.

From there it seems its a case of two people suspecting the worst from the other.
Zimmerman thought Martin was a burglar, martin thought Zimmerman was a creep ass cracker or possibly a gay rapist.
We do know clearly though who was beating who. Martin was beating Zimmerman, not the other way around.
We also know it was quite a while into the beating that Martin was shot so its not like Zimmerman used the slightest excuse to shoot the man.
He called for help repeatedly before the shot was fired.

So if I put myself into Zimmermans shoes, I would have shot him as well.
Martin didn't die because he was a black kid walking back from a store.
He died because he chose to approach another man he thought was suspicious and was on top of that man beating him senseless when he could have just gone home.
Most people skip these facts which tie in with the evidence available.

If Zimmerman was guilty of profiling (thats how neighborhood watch works), he wasn't guilty of pursuing it since he backed off when asked,
then Martin was guilty of profiling (the creepy ass cracker comment) and took action that others attribute to Zimmerman, following him and starting an altercation.

My question is what could Zimmerman do differently to prevent this outcome and what could Martin.
Zimmerman could have reported a suspicious guy and left. He could have told the officer to see what the guy was doing he'd have to follow him on foot.
Note that only in the first case would have guaranteed nothing happened.
The second case that everyone says he should have done wouldn't necessarily mean the conflict would have not happened.
The reason is that martin started approaching the truck while Zimmerman was initially making the call.
He didn't go home, he stayed around. There is nothing to suggest that he would have gone home if Zimmerman stayed in his truck.

As for Martin he could have simply gone home. The end.
He also should have not confronted Zimmerman like was claimed.

So no, I don't think I could hold him accountable for the death of Martin.
I really think Martin was accountable for his own death.

Given new evidence I may change that view but with what I've seen and heard, I couldn't hold Zimmerman accountable for something that could easily have happened to anyone, including myself.

Finally, I can see myself doing what Zimmerman did. I would not see myself guilty of murder.
Likewise, when I was 17 full of testosterone, not used to it and being high on adrenalin, I can see myself having done what martin did.

Its just a sad set of circumstances, making it sadder won't help anything.

[Rebis]

Zimmerman's guilty of being half white.

That's THE issue for some people, isn't it?

Let's just call it out.

p.s.: Zimmerman did not profile Martin. He was asked (by the dispatcher) if the person looked white, Hispanic, or black.

Zimmerman answered.

I guess my having noticed Eunjeong (a friend) is Asian was my "racially profiling" her? I'm not supposed to notice, or gouge my eyes out so I don't?

I'm sure Eunjeong has noticed I'm white. Is she "racially profiling" me?

Ridiculous!

[FZR1KG]

It is sadly.
The "news" services even coined a new term for playing the race card, white-Hispanic.
W.T.F.

Why don't they call Obama white-black or white-African????

[Rebis]

I also find it interesting that, so far as I've seen today, there is no uproar from the LGBT community regarding Martin's friend's homophobic fears - which apparently led to Martin attacking Zimmerman.

I have to wonder why. Fear of outraging the black community?

It was okay, in this instance, for a black youth to presume a man IS gay and bash him?

That's also disturbing.

I'm cued in with a gay celebrity, and thus follow one major gay news source on Twitter.

Nothing.

Hmmmm.

[SciFi Chick]

I'm guessing there's no outrage because there's also no proof.

[Rebis]

I'm guessing there's no outrage because there's also no proof.

Her comments on Piers Morgan?

[FZR1KG]

In the trial she said she thought he may be a gay rapist.
How much that influenced Martin is entirely different.
So its not really any proof of Martins wrong doing, just that she is paranoid.

[FZR1KG]

Oh the things one finds: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa3_1337699720

There's Martin playing referee in a street "fight club".

[Rebis]

In the trial she said she thought he may be a gay rapist.
How much that influenced Martin is entirely different.
So its not really any proof of Martins wrong doing, just that she is paranoid.

Good points. I agree.

So we can say that Rachel Jeantel's a creepy ass homophobe?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Neither of us is attacking you or TSC. We are genuinely curious about your insight regarding this case because we've gotten rather obsessed with it over the last couple of days, and we honestly can't see anything but an innocent man defending himself. I couldn't wait to wake up this morning and see your or TSC's response, so you can imagine my disappointment that FZ's wording made you unwilling to answer. I do hope you'll reconsider.

For what it's worth, I know I'm not being attacked. I've just decided that I'm not going to comment further on this until the judge's formal decision is published. That's the only way to know exactly the reasons for the verdict. It will also allow me to point out, with quotations from the decision itself, why the law is broken.

We just need to wait until the written decision is published.

[SciFi Chick]

Fair enough. But perhaps when the written decision is published, you might change your mind.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Could be. I'm always open to having my mind changed. But it seems unlikely, here.