Al Franken

[Cyborg Girl]

Yup him too. This time there's a really gross photo of him in action, too.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42018154

Good luck keeping that seat Al, you'll need it you swine.

[Rommie]

Well, that sucks.

[pumpkinpi]

It's a disappointment for me, having been a fan of his since SNL days in the 90's, and having him as my Senator, particularly for his advocacy for STEM.

Take a look at his response on Facebook. He takes responsibility, he apologizes, and he says he's calling an ethics investigation. Does this make what he did ok? No. But it's a better response than deflect and deny.

The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.

I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.

But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.

For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.

Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.

While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.

I am asking that an ethics investigation be undertaken, and I will gladly cooperate.

And the truth is, what people think of me in light of this is far less important than what people think of women who continue to come forward to tell their stories. They deserve to be heard, and believed. And they deserve to know that I am their ally and supporter. I have let them down and am committed to making it up to them.

[geonuc]

Yup him too. This time there's a really gross photo of him in action, too.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42018154

Good luck keeping that seat Al, you'll need it you swine.

Senator Al Franken is no swine, this photo not withstanding. Yes, he made a mistake, thinking something was funny that in the cold light of the year 2017 seems pretty unfunny.

[Cyborg Girl]

Bullshit, geonuc. What he did was swinish, and also illegal. He's an adult, he didn't care until his hand was forced, he can deal with the consequences.

I know we're all inclined to forgive people on our own team, so to speak, but IMO you should think this one over a bit.

[SciFi Chick]

I don't think he's swine. And I'm not on his team. What he did was wrong but are we really going to equate all disrespect of women with rape?

Having been an aspiring actress, I've seen some crazy shit in acting class. Hell, I got my first French kiss, unexpectedly in a cold reading class. The guy wasn't the least bit interested in me. He was trying to do his job as an actor and he got carried away.

I just think we're getting into some very scary territory here.

[Loresinger]

I am so over this 10-20-30-40 year later BS. There are some (perhaps more than some) who are just looking for a moment of fame. Note: I am a female and I get the good old boys club, but there are certainly other motives in a good percentage of these accusations other than furthering women's progress.

I said it with Monica L. Who the hell saves a dress for how many years if you did not intend to use it for blackmail? Really

My biggest issue is that a lot of these claims are making it difficult for other women, with true and current needs, seem secondary

[Rommie]

Honestly, as someone who kept documents about someone more powerful than her from ten years ago, you keep them because you’re not sure what to do about it, but you know once you toss it it’s not a decision you can ever reverse.

(Monica Lewinsky actually did an amazing TED talk which is on YouTube and I recommend to everyone.)

[Cyborg Girl]

Okay, since I see people talking about comparisons of Franken to Moore and how very dare they: I'd like to remind folks that "decent compared to an authoritarian religious zealot, unapologetic bigot, and known pederast" is a really damn low bar. We can all agree the Republican party is awful, that's the easy part, but everyone needs to be cleaning house.

... Fuck it, I'll let Samantha Bee do the talking because she's better at it than I am.

https://youtu.be/t1shnJT8NCY

Edit: also, serious agree with what Rommie said above. And Bill Clinton having sex with a 20something intern is a massive abuse of personal authority. I'm still pissed that Lewinsky took the fall for it.

[Loresinger]

Franken holds the distinction of being a guy accused of groping through a Kevlar vest...

[Cyborg Girl]

And again, more recently:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3611 ... g-photo-op

[Thumper]

... Fuck it, I'll let Samantha Bee do the talking because she's better at it than I am.

https://youtu.be/t1shnJT8NCY

Hilarious and pointed as usual.

[pumpkinpi]

And again, more recently:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3611 ... g-photo-op

I wuz groped at the State Fair too! His third hand was around my butt.

[Thumper]

That weird guy behind you looks to be staring at your butt.


Or Al's I guess.

[code monkey]

Okay, since I see people talking about comparisons of Franken to Moore and how very dare they: I'd like to remind folks that "decent compared to an authoritarian religious zealot, unapologetic bigot, and known pederast" is a really damn low bar. We can all agree the Republican party is awful, that's the easy part, but everyone needs to be cleaning house.

... Fuck it, I'll let Samantha Bee do the talking because she's better at it than I am.

https://youtu.be/t1shnJT8NCY

Edit: also, serious agree with what Rommie said above. And Bill Clinton having sex with a 20something intern is a massive abuse of personal authority. I'm still pissed that Lewinsky took the fall for it.

sorry, gj but I don't agree. what franken did is gross but no reason for his resignation. and i'm not comparing him to roy moore. or our current president. as for bill Clinton and monica Lewinsky, once again, awful behavior on both of their parts but it just doesn't seem that he forced himself on her in any way, shape or form.

as for keeping the dress, loresinger, I wonder if she saw it as a souvenir of a wild adventure. after all, people used to save corsages.

[geonuc]

I'll say this about Bill Clinton. I'm a fan. He was a great president. Extremely smart and able to compromise for the greater good.

And the greater good is what we should focus on. Clinton may have his personal failings, but having him in the White House allowed this country - and most of the people who live here - to benefit enormously from his progressive policies.

I'm not an adherent to the idea that our leaders must be morally and ethically spotless. I AM an adherent to the idea that their policies should be so. It's all about the policies. I will literally support and vote for someone convicted of the most heinous crimes if I am convinced their policies will be good.

So here's the thing about Franken and, say, Roy Moore. Leave aside the fact that what each is accused of is not even close to being equivalent. Leave aside that the first Franken accuser is clearly a fake, a political operative. Leave aside that even though Moore's alleged transgressions are criminal, he hasn't been charged. Let's look at policies. Both have extensive records as public servants.

Have you followed what Franken does as a senator? He is a champion of all things we believe in. He is on the front lines fighting for our rights in the face of the horrible GOP disaster that has gripped our country. In short, he is someone you can believe will put your interests first. You want him in the Senate, so any talk of his resigning is fucking stupid.

Are you familiar with Judge Roy Moore? Twice the Chief Judge on the Alabama Supreme Court; twice thrown off the court by the state's judicial ethics body for violating the US Constitution. You see, Judge Moore doesn't think the US Constitution reigns supreme as the law of the land. This is not hyperbole - he has stated as such. And no, he doesn't think state law reigns supreme (although he is state's rights, for sure). He thinks GOD's law reigns supreme. He literally thinks the Ten Commandments supersedes human laws (even though he apparently can't bring himself to adhere to most of the commandments).

And that's the difference between the two men, and the difference between Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. One one side, you have a horrible person who will tear this country down, and on the other, one who will enact policies in keeping with our best traditions and values.

[Cyborg Girl]

More people coming forward:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/al ... 0ec295?b9q

[Cyborg Girl]

Shitty thing about people like this, they don't just do it once or twice. They're usually repeat offenders. Some of them can reform, but taking them at their word is a fool's errand.

[Rommie]

So I was thinking about this a bit more but wanted to wait until I was at my laptop before typing it all out:

1) First, I have heard a lot of defense of Franken in terms of what geonuc said. My response to this always is to remember that Minnesota is a pretty liberal state, with a Democrat governor, so it's a pretty safe bet that if Franken were to resign or someone new challenged him in election it would be someone who still carries in line with those views. I personally don't like this argument much because while I will respect the policy someone has helped with in the past, I don't think that ipso facto means no one else can do it in the future, or better! I say this because one of the big arguments the establishment had when the first sexual harassment cases came up in astronomy a few years ago was "but these guys did so much good science!" As if their actions did not drive away women who maybe would have done even more and better science, but we'll never know. I will agree that comparison is perhaps a bit much, but I think the general sentiment is still there.

2) OTOH, to show that Franken is not in line with the rest of these assholes, he actually said he was open to a full ethical investigation. I am pretty darn ok with this taking course in this case, but

3) I can guarantee that politicians are going to drag out any allegations against them ever as long as possible, in hopes that people lose interest. We can't let that happen.

[geonuc]

Yes, if Franken is forced to resign, we'll still have a Democrat in the seat. But as you mention, it won't be the same Democrat.

How many Democratic senators do you constantly hear about as they challenge the GOP? Exactly two. Franken and Warren. There are forty-six Democratic senators. The other forty-four seem to be behind-the-scenes operators, except Schumer. But he seems to mostly involve himself with minority leader stuff. We need Franken out there leading the resistance.

Your analogy with the situation with scientists is valid. My response would be that I see it as something of a sliding scale with my willingness to put up with past transgressions increasing with the importance of the person's job to society. While scientists are valuable - very valuable - an individual scientist is far less important than the president, US senators, key US representatives and Supreme Court justices and appeals court judges in terms of the benefit or harm they can do to society. There would be a few others, such as the Fed Chair, the Attorney General, etc.

There's also a difference in that what, say, Sen. Franken did (allegedly) in the way of sexual harassment does not itself affect the value he provides to society. By that I mean, if we overlook his transgressions, we are not simultaneously shooting ourselves in the foot in terms of having good policies in the US senate. Conversely, I think male scientists who sexually harass female scientists do affect the greater good in terms of scientific advancement. What they do tends to repel women from entering and staying in scientific fields and that hurts society, as you pointed out. What Franken did does not prevent female senators from doing what they do and I don't think discourages women from running for the senate (it probably does the opposite, actually).

Our country is in a political crisis like I've never seen in my sixty-two years. I'm not willing to throw away one of the best politicians we have. If this were thirty years ago, maybe. But that was back in the days when Democrats and Republicans were mostly honorable servants of the people and could compromise for the greater good (think Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill and President Ronald Reagan).

[squ1d]

Ronald Reagan was an honorable servant of the people?

I'm just thinking about jelly bean etiquette, trickle down economics and all the homeless mentally ill people. But maybe that's a different thread?

Still, nobody can compare to Trump, who is currently retweeting Britain First >.<

[geonuc]

Yes, as politicians go, Reagan was an honorable man. I, and many like-minded folk, simply disagreed with his policies.

[Cyborg Girl]

I remember recently people were saying about Trump, "Oh well we survived Reagan". Gay folks who lived through they AIDS crisis tended to respond that many of their friends did not in fact survive Reagan.

Honor, diplomacy, and compromise all mean very little IMO when they result in policies that kill the innocent.

[Cyborg Girl]

And while we're at it, fuck Al Franken. I get that he apologized and I respect Tweeden's decision to avoid charges;, but that doesn't magically make him an okay guy.

(For the record I also find his apology statement kind of pompous and weaselly, but yeah, YMMV on that. But like... no... clearly you don't respect women or you wouldn't have been groping them for years and years? While being more famous and powerful and them? Take a seat already, dude.)

[Loresinger]

GJ you do know that people can change? They do sometimes. Hell he even called an ethics review ON HIMSELF. You don't see 45 doing that...or Roy Moore. IMO there are huge differences here. I am an advocate of finding some balance in this. Men and women BOTH need to be responsible.

A friend mentioned to me today a woman complaining about people leering at her boobs. Her shirt was just shy of her nipples. What the hell is the thought process? Humans are sexual beings and it would be hard to miss those jugs even for a child (who thinks "got milk?").

If we are to build a better society it has to start with NOT seeing a giant blot where only a bit of dust exists.We are heading in a direction where everyone will wonder if it's ok to sit or stand next to anyone at the office, or worry that someone misconstrues a statement as harassment. Damn, common sense is not common