Its the Russians...

[vendic]

That has been a big complaint of mine for decades now. No one actually takes responsibility. The closest we get is GW saying, "I take full responsibility", but taking responsibility without consequences is simply smoke and mirror bullshit. That really missed me off when he pulled that stunt.

See, this is where you into trouble with us, saying utterly stupid shit like this (and please don't blame it on your keypad).

NO ONE takes responsibility? The CLOSEST is Bush? Where the fuck were you during eight years of the Obama administration? You may take issue with this or that thing he did, with this or that thing he wasn't completely up front about, but for fuck's sake, the man ran the most morally, ethically responsible major government administration in the history of the world.

Q.E.D.

Last I checked Obama didn't screw anything up that he needed to take responsibility for. I struggle to find anything bad he did of any significance.

Taking responsibility, in the context I gave, falling on one's sword, is clearly when someone royally screwed up but refuses to take responsibility for it. I thought it was extremely clear given the context I presented.
Thus taking responsibility for failure or highly questionable practices is a far cry to what you interpreted that I wrote.

Even your quote above strips the very sentence that provides said context, literally the very sentence before what you quoted. So yeah, I really stand by my assessment that I can't get anyone online to understand my points. That becomes very clear when I spend much of my time defending what people assume I wrote, even when it should have been apparent.

Same as the other stuff. I write that the US is not the beacon of light that is proclaimed by the US.
I wrote that doesn't mean they are evil, just flawed, " like everyone else", but that's not clear enough.
So if you have decided that I think the US is just short of evil, then by simple logic, where I said they are the same as everyone else, it also means you think I think everyone is just short of evil.
I would have thought there was no way anyone could make the case that I was saying the USA is evil from that alone.
But, lets examine the implications of a beacon of light, how does that sound to the rest of the World. Simple, it means the USA is the only light in the darkness. Light = good. Darkness = evil.
If you all really think that the USA is good while the rest of us are evil, quite frankly, screw your arrogance. By me saying it is flawed like everyone else, that gets interpreted as the USA is just short of evil. Its part of the darkness, the evil. So I guess it does sound like I'm saying the USA is close to evil, because there is no other option.
What I find disturbing is that Americans generally don't even see the implications in the claim that they are a beacon of light. That being, the rest of the World is evil and flawed, the USA is not.

Yet I get jumped on for making a simple case that they are like everyone, flawed.

And you think you know my pov. Clearly you do not. You are looking at anything that you can take offense at while ignoring contextual cues and comments that do not fit the narrative you have already decided to go with.
That's you call. It doesn't offend me. It sure does disappoint me though.
Even when Americans imply the rest of the World is in darkness/evil, I don't actually believe that is the view they hold. I figure they are simply ignorant of the plainly clear implications of that statement.
But God almighty, try to point out that we're all flawed, and prepare for a he'll of a shit storm.

TLDR: I find it fascinating that people can claim the rest of the World is evil and in darkness while the USA is the beacon of light without understanding how arrogant and insulting that actually is. While at the same time take great offence at the idea this isn't the case.
Just thought I'd spell it out clearly and concisely.

With that, this little evil ass that can't see the shining beacon of light is done. Interpret that as you wish.

[Swift]

That has been a big complaint of mine for decades now. No one actually takes responsibility. The closest we get is GW saying, "I take full responsibility", but taking responsibility without consequences is simply smoke and mirror bullshit. That really missed me off when he pulled that stunt.

See, this is where you into trouble with us, saying utterly stupid shit like this (and please don't blame it on your keypad).

NO ONE takes responsibility? The CLOSEST is Bush? Where the fuck were you during eight years of the Obama administration? You may take issue with this or that thing he did, with this or that thing he wasn't completely up front about, but for fuck's sake, the man ran the most morally, ethically responsible major government administration in the history of the world.

Yes, completely agree with geonuc. Whether you like Obama and/or his policies, he never shunned responsibility (Swift waits while someone one digs out some little counter example). Trump expects others to write his ACA-repeal; the Obama White House did the vast majority of the work on the ACA, whether you like the law or not.

[Swift]

Last I checked Obama didn't screw anything up that he needed to take responsibility for. I struggle to find anything bad he did of any significance.

Interesting point, though there is something about taking responsibility for anything good you did.

And Obama is a complete contrast to the current Toddler-in-chief. When the Obama administration or the US government (or parts there of) did good things, Obama would congratulate those doing the work. If things were criticized, it was on him.

Trump is completely opposite. If the hurricane rescue stuff goes well "I give the best hurricane relief, best ever"; when things screw up it is NEVER him.

I will say there were some areas the Obama administration screwed up, but they are not particular bills, laws, or policies. I think they assumed too much that the GOP would at some point play nice and fair and work with them. I think they assumed there were grown-ups on the other side of the aisle, and it took them too long to realize this wasn't true. If they had done so quickly, they might have gotten more stuff done in the first two years, before the GOP took over the House.

Similarly, there was some early stuff that I don't think was communicated to the American public well, though I can't think of examples off the top of my head. OK... one example, countering GOP lies about the ACA.

[geonuc]

Sorry, I probably should have stayed out of this thread. I can be a little harsh when I'm riled.

Obama certainly screwed some things up. For example, I think his defense department policies went a little too 'PC' and moved away from core principles, chiefly that Mission #1 is to be ready to fight and win a war, or two. Not that I think the US military is unready - it remains a first class organization. I just think some of his policies were a little weak. I'm not going to give specifics but i'm on a lot of military forums and although I tend to cringe at the right-wing crap those people often spew, on occasion some of the more intelligent ones make good points that I have trouble countering.

And I blame Obama for there still being these ridiculous marijuana laws that Jeff Sessions can use to abuse people. Obama did virtually nothing to fix the legal situation other than instruct the DEA and FBI to back off in deference to state law.

There are other things; I'm just not real good at recalling specifics. but over the eight years, I got hoppin' mad a few times.

But i never, ever thought Obama tried to blame others for stuff that he controlled. He even was polite when speaking of McConnell and Boehner. You know, the two republican leaders who blatantly stated that their only goal in congress was to thwart Obama. So to read someone say that GW Bush was the last president to take responsibility for his acts, well, you read my posts above. It chapped my hide a bit.

[Sigma_Orionis]

That might be a good description of us Yanks. Most of us. Some of us.

Well, here's hoping it applies to most you damned imperial imperialist gringos from the imperial imperialist gringo empire in 2018/2020

A good friend of mine has a way of expressing that. Whenever he, or one of his friends, is bitching about some slight or inconvenience, he likes add append the hashtag #firstworldproblems.

We see ominous things coming out of Washington these days and yearn for a do-over with the last election, knowing that whatever faults the 'other candidate' had, she would have at least continued the legacy of the last administration for the most part. Certainly in tone and compassion.

However we as Americans have screwed up and are screwing up the country, it remains a pretty awesome place to live when compared to the great majority of the world. Especially if you're white. And I think that while we have a long way to go and are in fact currently losing ground, it's still a better place than most for most non-white people as well.

Yeah, I believe it. While here in Bananaland we're not yet at the level of an African Country in the middle of a Civil War, we seem get closer to that every day.

HOWEVER I can tell you about one real "First World Problem": Voter Abstention. Not just you (just about 50% of the electorate showed up to vote last November, right?), the Brits (about the same number for the EU referendum) the damned SPANIARDS (the Catalonia Independence Referendum, only 43% of the electorate showed up, but the results were 90% in favor of seceding from Spain) Even Puerto Ricans (all the damned crying about them not being an independent country and in the last referendum, taken in July THIS YEAR, electoral turnout was 23%!) While here in Bananaland, even in rigged elections like the ones we've had in the last year, turnout is at worst 60%. Which leads me to think that people only vote if their life sucks.

[SciFiFisher]

That has been a big complaint of mine for decades now. No one actually takes responsibility. The closest we get is GW saying, "I take full responsibility", but taking responsibility without consequences is simply smoke and mirror bullshit. That really missed me off when he pulled that stunt.

See, this is where you into trouble with us, saying utterly stupid shit like this (and please don't blame it on your keypad).

NO ONE takes responsibility? The CLOSEST is Bush? Where the fuck were you during eight years of the Obama administration? You may take issue with this or that thing he did, with this or that thing he wasn't completely up front about, but for fuck's sake, the man ran the most morally, ethically responsible major government administration in the history of the world.

Q.E.D.

Last I checked Obama didn't screw anything up that he needed to take responsibility for. I struggle to find anything bad he did of any significance.

Taking responsibility, in the context I gave, falling on one's sword, is clearly when someone royally screwed up but refuses to take responsibility for it. I thought it was extremely clear given the context I presented.
Thus taking responsibility for failure or highly questionable practices is a far cry to what you interpreted that I wrote.

Even your quote above strips the very sentence that provides said context, literally the very sentence before what you quoted. So yeah, I really stand by my assessment that I can't get anyone online to understand my points. That becomes very clear when I spend much of my time defending what people assume I wrote, even when it should have been apparent.

Same as the other stuff. I write that the US is not the beacon of light that is proclaimed by the US.
I wrote that doesn't mean they are evil, just flawed, " like everyone else", but that's not clear enough.
So if you have decided that I think the US is just short of evil, then by simple logic, where I said they are the same as everyone else, it also means you think I think everyone is just short of evil.
I would have thought there was no way anyone could make the case that I was saying the USA is evil from that alone.
But, lets examine the implications of a beacon of light, how does that sound to the rest of the World. Simple, it means the USA is the only light in the darkness. Light = good. Darkness = evil.
If you all really think that the USA is good while the rest of us are evil, quite frankly, screw your arrogance. By me saying it is flawed like everyone else, that gets interpreted as the USA is just short of evil. Its part of the darkness, the evil. So I guess it does sound like I'm saying the USA is close to evil, because there is no other option.
What I find disturbing is that Americans generally don't even see the implications in the claim that they are a beacon of light. That being, the rest of the World is evil and flawed, the USA is not.

Yet I get jumped on for making a simple case that they are like everyone, flawed.

And you think you know my pov. Clearly you do not. You are looking at anything that you can take offense at while ignoring contextual cues and comments that do not fit the narrative you have already decided to go with.
That's you call. It doesn't offend me. It sure does disappoint me though.
Even when Americans imply the rest of the World is in darkness/evil, I don't actually believe that is the view they hold. I figure they are simply ignorant of the plainly clear implications of that statement.
But God almighty, try to point out that we're all flawed, and prepare for a he'll of a shit storm.

TLDR: I find it fascinating that people can claim the rest of the World is evil and in darkness while the USA is the beacon of light without understanding how arrogant and insulting that actually is. While at the same time take great offence at the idea this isn't the case.
Just thought I'd spell it out clearly and concisely.

With that, this little evil ass that can't see the shining beacon of light is done. Interpret that as you wish.

Yet I get jumped on for making a simple case that they are like everyone, flawed.

We didn't jump on you for making a simple case that the U.S. is flawed. We jumped on you because 1. You impugned every single foreign policy and international act we have made from about 1945 on. And called it all Bullshit. and 2. When we pointed out that it wasn't all Bullshit you contradicted that. 3. When we pointed out that it looked like you were saying the U.S. was all but the Axis of Evil (my words, not yours) you are now shifting the argument to "look how fucking arrogant you are saying you are the only "good guys" in the world".

You can be done if you want. Or you might realize that when you say things like "It's all make believe bullshit" I might interpret that as including everything. which is what the word "all" is meant to say. You can't say everything is ALL BS and not expect someone to say "No, NOT ALL, is BS. And when that person (ME) is personally involved in a large part of that stuff that is NOT BS you might want to realize that I might take it very personally when you tell me that what I have participated in for the last 40+ years is ALL BS. That those things we did were really just to serve an evil capitalist empire that wanted cheap oil, diamonds, and other natural resources. You might also want to realize that we understand that there is just enough truth in that claim to be just a bit sensitive about claims that ALL we did was for that crap. We are quite aware that we are not perfect. But, you can't say "It's ALL BS" and then follow it with "well, no one is all evil. But, you are some evil which negates most of your good. As long you realize your good is outweighed by your bad then the U.S. can take it's rightful humble place in the world with the rest of mere mortals."

[Rommie]

That might be a good description of us Yanks. Most of us. Some of us.

Well, here's hoping it applies to most you damned imperial imperialist gringos from the imperial imperialist gringo empire in 2018/2020

A good friend of mine has a way of expressing that. Whenever he, or one of his friends, is bitching about some slight or inconvenience, he likes add append the hashtag #firstworldproblems.

We see ominous things coming out of Washington these days and yearn for a do-over with the last election, knowing that whatever faults the 'other candidate' had, she would have at least continued the legacy of the last administration for the most part. Certainly in tone and compassion.

However we as Americans have screwed up and are screwing up the country, it remains a pretty awesome place to live when compared to the great majority of the world. Especially if you're white. And I think that while we have a long way to go and are in fact currently losing ground, it's still a better place than most for most non-white people as well.

Yeah, I believe it. While here in Bananaland we're not yet at the level of an African Country in the middle of a Civil War, we seem get closer to that every day.

HOWEVER I can tell you about one real "First World Problem": Voter Abstention. Not just you (just about 50% of the electorate showed up to vote last November, right?), the Brits (about the same number for the EU referendum) the damned SPANIARDS (the Catalonia Independence Referendum, only 43% of the electorate showed up, but the results were 90% in favor of seceding from Spain) Even Puerto Ricans (all the damned crying about them not being an independent country and in the last referendum, taken in July THIS YEAR, electoral turnout was 23%!) While here in Bananaland, even in rigged elections like the ones we've had in the last year, turnout is at worst 60%. Which leads me to think that people only vote if their life sucks.

Referendums like the Catalan one are tricky beasts because of the underlying clause that if enough people do not show up they are not valid results (typically under EU laws). I know in the Netherlands there are often referendums where people who think the topic they're on will just stay home because you don't want to get over 50% and then have anyone bound by it.

Weird system but there you go.

[vendic]

We didn't jump on you for making a simple case that the U.S. is flawed. We jumped on you because 1. You impugned every single foreign policy and international act we have made from about 1945 on. And called it all Bullshit. and 2. When we pointed out that it wasn't all Bullshit you contradicted that. 3. When we pointed out that it looked like you were saying the U.S. was all but the Axis of Evil (my words, not yours) you are now shifting the argument to "look how fucking arrogant you are saying you are the only "good guys" in the world".

You can be done if you want. Or you might realize that when you say things like "It's all make believe bullshit" I might interpret that as including everything. which is what the word "all" is meant to say. You can't say everything is ALL BS and not expect someone to say "No, NOT ALL, is BS. And when that person (ME) is personally involved in a large part of that stuff that is NOT BS you might want to realize that I might take it very personally when you tell me that what I have participated in for the last 40+ years is ALL BS. That those things we did were really just to serve an evil capitalist empire that wanted cheap oil, diamonds, and other natural resources. You might also want to realize that we understand that there is just enough truth in that claim to be just a bit sensitive about claims that ALL we did was for that crap. We are quite aware that we are not perfect. But, you can't say "It's ALL BS" and then follow it with "well, no one is all evil. But, you are some evil which negates most of your good. As long you realize your good is outweighed by your bad then the U.S. can take it's rightful humble place in the world with the rest of mere mortals."

1) wtf. Please quote anywhere I claimed that
2) wtf? Please quote anywhere I did that.
3) I didn't shift shit. I was responding to geonucs epic fuck you fz rant and putting it into the realm of looking at how others might view that statement. Done in the interest of clarification. If there is a contention, its best to explain what that is. How the hell else can we communicate if we aren't allowed to explain our pov? If I never stated it, no one here would understand why I hold the view I have. If I'm not allowed to state my pov, then this isn't a discussion, its a circle jerk.


For the record, can you quote where I at any point wrote " ALL". The very post I first mentioned "the beacon of light" I went out of my way to state they aren't evil, just flawed like everyone else. The first reference to "all" was written by you, not me. Not once anywhere did I write that or imply it. If you find one case please let me know and I will correct it.

Since it doesn't seem to be getting through, let me make it clear and concise:
The USA is not evil. Americans are not evil. Americans have done good. The USA has done good.
I still do not, and never will however call it a beacon of light or democracy because of what it implies for everyone else. But they have done good. They are not evil.
They are however not a shinning example of good in the world while the rest of us are not.
The USA has done good.
They also did some bad shit.
The USA has done a lot of good.
It has done a lot of shit too.
Tha USA has done a lot of good.
It however is not the only good in a sea of evil.
The USA has done good.
But it is not a beacon of good there to point the righteous path for the rest to follow.
The USA has done good. Americans are not evil.
I would not have American friends, an American wife nor would I willingly live in a country I thought was evil.

To be honest, I can't fucking believe I even have to say this. It makes me wonder just how much of an retarded assole y'all think I am.

Does that help?

[Sigma_Orionis]

Referendums like the Catalan one are tricky beasts because of the underlying clause that if enough people do not show up they are not valid results (typically under EU laws). I know in the Netherlands there are often referendums where people who think the topic they're on will just stay home because you don't want to get over 50% and then have anyone bound by it.

Weird system but there you go.

It does makes me wonder what the hell the Catalonian Separatists tried to achieve though, maybe they got exactly what the wanted, goad Madrid into looking like Fascists.

[Sigma_Orionis]

We didn't jump on you for making a simple case that the U.S. is flawed. We jumped on you because 1. You impugned every single foreign policy and international act we have made from about 1945 on. And called it all Bullshit. and 2. When we pointed out that it wasn't all Bullshit you contradicted that. 3. When we pointed out that it looked like you were saying the U.S. was all but the Axis of Evil (my words, not yours) you are now shifting the argument to "look how fucking arrogant you are saying you are the only "good guys" in the world".

You can be done if you want. Or you might realize that when you say things like "It's all make believe bullshit" I might interpret that as including everything. which is what the word "all" is meant to say. You can't say everything is ALL BS and not expect someone to say "No, NOT ALL, is BS. And when that person (ME) is personally involved in a large part of that stuff that is NOT BS you might want to realize that I might take it very personally when you tell me that what I have participated in for the last 40+ years is ALL BS. That those things we did were really just to serve an evil capitalist empire that wanted cheap oil, diamonds, and other natural resources. You might also want to realize that we understand that there is just enough truth in that claim to be just a bit sensitive about claims that ALL we did was for that crap. We are quite aware that we are not perfect. But, you can't say "It's ALL BS" and then follow it with "well, no one is all evil. But, you are some evil which negates most of your good. As long you realize your good is outweighed by your bad then the U.S. can take it's rightful humble place in the world with the rest of mere mortals."

1) wtf. Please quote anywhere I claimed that
2) wtf? Please quote anywhere I did that.
3) I didn't shift shit. I was responding to geonucs epic fuck you fz rant and putting it into the realm of looking at how others might view that statement. Done in the interest of clarification. If there is a contention, its best to explain what that is. How the hell else can we communicate if we aren't allowed to explain our pov? If I never stated it, no one here would understand why I hold the view I have. If I'm not allowed to state my pov, then this isn't a discussion, its a circle jerk.


For the record, can you quote where I at any point wrote " ALL". The very post I first mentioned "the beacon of light" I went out of my way to state they aren't evil, just flawed like everyone else. The first reference to "all" was written by you, not me. Not once anywhere did I write that or imply it. If you find one case please let me know and I will correct it.

Since it doesn't seem to be getting through, let me make it clear and concise:
The USA is not evil. Americans are not evil. Americans have done good. The USA has done good.
I still do not, and never will however call it a beacon of light or democracy because of what it implies for everyone else. But they have done good. They are not evil.
They are however not a shinning example of good in the world while the rest of us are not.
The USA has done good.
They also did some bad shit.
The USA has done a lot of good.
It has done a lot of shit too.
Tha USA has done a lot of good.
It however is not the only good in a sea of evil.
The USA has done good.
But it is not a beacon of good there to point the righteous path for the rest to follow.
The USA has done good. Americans are not evil.
I would not have American friends, an American wife nor would I willingly live in a country I thought was evil.

To be honest, I can't fucking believe I even have to say this. It makes me wonder just how much of an retarded assole y'all think I am.

Does that help?

Sepoy

[hides under the nearest rock]

[SciFiFisher]

To be honest, I can't fucking believe I even have to say this. It makes me wonder just how much of an retarded assole y'all think I am.

You end with a leading statement like that? What are you doing? Fishing for compliments? Look, I get that you are going through some stuff. And I appreciate that you took the time to try to clarify your stance. Frankly, I don't blame you being bitter and cynical about the current state of affairs in the great "beacon of democracy" that we aren't. Before I go back to beating you about the head and shoulders I really wish we could do this over a cold beer. But, I still haven't forgot that you and SFC drank all the apricot ale.

You didn't use the actual word "all" but I have read the statement several times and I still see an implied implicit all in the statement. And it is this:

pretty much agree except I don't see it as a bad thing that he is so clearly American interests first. Its really the same foreign policy that the USA always had, just that the World liked and fell for the "beacon of democracy" shit.
I prefer the harsh reality than feel good make belive shit people have been sold on.

That doesn't make the USA evil. It just makes them the same as everyone else: flawed. So the World gets a reality check. The USA is not a beacon of light. It reminds me of when kids realise Santa isn't real and there is no Easter bunny.

Wait till the majority of Americans realise that too.
We live in interesting times.

First, you destroy Santa and the Easter Bunny in the same statement. Next, I suppose you are going to tell me it wasn't the fucking tooth fairy putting those quarters under my pillow all those years ago? Man, you are harsh! You just walk around destroying childhood and ruining Christmas and you think no one is going to get upset? Yeah?! Well, you just wait until the Fairytale Anti-Defamation League get done with your ass buddy. I hope you look good in a Tutu.

[geonuc]

And I didn't post an 'epic rant'. It was neither epic nor a rant. More like a pointed barb.

And I stand by my expressed sentiment, even if it might have been too 'pointed'. Your cynicism over the past months has infected your dialog to the point where you crossed the line with me. I've been able to ignore the continuing Hillary/DNC/Russia monologue but not the latest stuff. Maybe that's my bad - I should have been able to ignore that, too.

[vendic]

To be honest, I can't fucking believe I even have to say this. It makes me wonder just how much of an retarded assole y'all think I am.

You end with a leading statement like that? What are you doing? Fishing for compliments? Look, I get that you are going through some stuff. And I appreciate that you took the time to try to clarify your stance. Frankly, I don't blame you being bitter and cynical about the current state of affairs in the great "beacon of democracy" that we aren't.

Re-reading what I wrote there its clear I messed it up. My intent different. Change the "this" to "that", and the second sentence on a separate line. It would clear up the intent. I missed the newline. Now that you pointed it out I see the wording was also not great.

My apologies for that and for getting you upset with what you interpreted. Same apologies to anyone else that read my posts the same way.

Maybe geonuc is right. I can no longer be clear in my writing. Personally I do not believe I have been cynical lately. It sure doesn't feel that way from my pov.

From my perspective, anything that I write is taken in the worst possible way. i no longer feel I have the ability to write anything without facing a hostile reception.
I even tested that theory. The GW taking full responsibility thing was what I wrote years ago, on FWIS1. Everyone agreed back then.
I have also written on this board my views on the whole beacon of light thing. Either on FWIS1 or 2. It was not taken as hatred of the USA.
So there is something at work here more than simply, fz is a cynical ass who hates the USA.

Geonuc, we disagree that you didn't have an epic rant. You claimed I wrote stupid shit then went off to rant about Obama, where the duck was I for the last 8 years, based on what I still consider you taking my statement completely out of context. That's a rant. It was epic because you made the decision that you were absolutely correct, ran with it, then made it personal. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Having said that, its clear to me at least that I either can't communicate correctly and an unintentionally upsetting people, or that I have pissed people off enough that they just instinctively look at how I might be trying to offend them. You know, like seeing that I replied and thinking, ok what bullshit has he written now type thing. More likely, a combination in various levels across board members.

Either way, as I have stated, it seems from my end I am writing to a predominantly hostile audience. Be it true or not, I actually have to put considerable effort in writing here, it is no longer enjoyable, nor do I feel like its a discussion. So so the logical conclusion clear.

My apologies to anyone I have offended on this thread or any other. For what its worth, it was never my intent.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Damn, my attempt to derail this into a fruitless fighting frenzy has been foiled!

YOU HAVE WON THIS TIME, BUT I'LL BE BACK!

[geonuc]

If I can make a suggestion, Z, you should get back on Facebook. I know you have bad history with them, but I suggest it anyway.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I just got a PM from Z, he's gone.

[Sigma_Orionis]

That might be a good description of us Yanks. Most of us. Some of us.

Turns out I'm not even an original sepoy

Heinlein wasn’t exactly subtle about it. He was an Academy officer himself and intimately familiar with America’s first navy commander and he put that John Paul Jones quote at the start of the appropriate chapter.

And what he was talking about is this: Pragmatism.

This country was founded on it.

We must do the best we can with what we have.

That’s what compromise is, you know, pragmatism.

[SciFiFisher]

I just got a PM from Z, he's gone.

I am truly sorry for that.

[Rommie]

So, it's really coming down huh?

ABC is reporting that when Flynn pled guilty he did so by offering to testify Trump told him to contact Russia. Which if so, wow things are about to get really crazy.

[geonuc]

I'm still in the 'I'll believe it when I see it' camp.

[SciFiFisher]

So far all I have heard is that Flynn plead guilty to one count of lying to the FBI about his foreign contacts/involvement. And that he has agreed to fully cooperate with investigators. Word was out weeks ago that Flynn would likely cave and agree to a deal in order to protect his son. His son was hip deep in the company operations and was Flynn's Chief of Staff. So... Jr probably was up to his eyeballs in the Russian and other things.

It remains to be seen if Trump will be implicated and if anything will actually happen to him.

[Rommie]

Question for likely geonuc. What is obstruction of justice precisely? Like, lying to a prosecutor sure, but I’m trying to understand just where and why people think Trump will be nabbed on this as he hasn’t talked to a prosecutor, so I’m guessing there are multiple ways to obstruct.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Question for likely geonuc. What is obstruction of justice precisely? Like, lying to a prosecutor sure, but I’m trying to understand just where and why people think Trump will be nabbed on this as he hasn’t talked to a prosecutor, so I’m guessing there are multiple ways to obstruct.

Probably because allegedly Trump fired Comey AFTER advocating for Flynn

[Rommie]

Question for likely geonuc. What is obstruction of justice precisely? Like, lying to a prosecutor sure, but I’m trying to understand just where and why people think Trump will be nabbed on this as he hasn’t talked to a prosecutor, so I’m guessing there are multiple ways to obstruct.

Probably because allegedly Trump fired Comey AFTER advocating for Flynn

That's what I was thinking too, but it wasn't clear to me. Like, I've enjoyed Seth Abramson explaining stuff on Twitter a lot (link) but it's not immediately clear, for example, why the tweet yesterday he wrote might get the lawyer disbarred. And can't tell if it's just the rampant speculation talking or me just not getting something.

[geonuc]

Question for likely geonuc. What is obstruction of justice precisely? Like, lying to a prosecutor sure, but I’m trying to understand just where and why people think Trump will be nabbed on this as he hasn’t talked to a prosecutor, so I’m guessing there are multiple ways to obstruct.

Yes, there are. I'm not an expert but obstruction of justice is a bit slippery. Refusing to cooperate when it's your duty to cooperate, not disclosing relevant information, intimidating or threatening people so they don't cooperate with investigations, destroying evidence. That sort of thing. I think the law relies heavily on court precedence rather than statutory law.

ETA: jury and witness tampering, too.