Roy Moore

[SciFi Chick]

For the record, I didn't think it was okay when Obama was in office and I don't think it's okay now. Liberals are showing themselves to be no better than conservatives by using the exact same tactics on Trump that were used on Obama. This attitude may well bring about utter disaster for the U.S. and that's incredibly disheartening.

[geonuc]

Liberals no better than conservatives? Same tactics? Listen to yourself.

The treatment Obama received was based on racist lies. He's a Muslim, he was not born here, etc. The criticisms of Trump are based on what the man has said and done. Trump literally - LITERALLY - bragged about committing sexual assault. The constant stream of crap that comes out of the man's mouth and his Twitter stream is unbelievable. To compare the reactions we're having to Trump as any way comparable to what conservatives did to Obama ignores who the two men are.

[SciFiFisher]

If y'all want to assume that he's guilty because of accusations, go for it. I think he might be guilty, but I'm very aware that I have bias because he's clearly an asshole.

However, to assume that everyone thinks like you do, that all the white people who voted for him believed he was guilty and didn't care is incredibly cynical and arrogant. Please quit assuming that everyone who isn't on your side on every political issue is evil. This polarization HAS to stop

I am going to say something I won't regret. No I don't have to stop assuming that if a person's actions result in evil that they are evil or serve an evil purpose. Even if their intent or purpose is not to be evil. There were a large number of people who were asked; "Do you believe the women accusing Roy Moore?" The response was almost always some version of side stepping the question or "I don't have any reason to doubt their accusations". When asked why they were going to vote for a man who was obviously not qualified to be a judge or a senator they almost universally responded with an answer that implied that having a democratic senator was WORSE than having a pedophile, homophobic, sedition inciting, Republican in the seat. 650,000 + people voted for Roy More. A large majority of them had to know that he was unfit for office. The only way they could NOT know was if they turned off the television, radio, and internet 6 months ago.

Every single person who voted for Roy Moore acted in a manner that was evil. They rationalized it. They convinced themselves that it wasn't evil. They railed against the fake news, the liberal conspiracies, and how the U.S. has fallen from the grace of God and we are in the mess because of the evil liberal progressive agenda. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what their intent was. It doesn't matter if they are really good people, nice to their dog, and don't beat their kids and wife. They acted in a manner that was evil. Their actions were evil.

When a person can look the nation in the eye and say "We need Roy Moore's Republican vote more than we need to stand by principles like integrity and fitness for office" without showing even a twinge of guilt, horror, or some indication that they are suffering from a conflict of moral consistency and decency that is an act of evil.

When they can say that a democrat in office is worse than a pedophile in office that is an evil intent

When they cast a vote for a man who is obviously unfit for office and they know or should know that he is unfit that is an act of evil

This causes a series of predictable responses from me:

I cannot meet them halfway because they are already polarized in the opposite direction that I am.

I cannot negotiate with them. All they want from me is my complete capitulation to their ideology

I cannot reason with them because they are reasoning from a place of irrational thought

[SciFi Chick]

If y'all want to assume that he's guilty because of accusations, go for it. I think he might be guilty, but I'm very aware that I have bias because he's clearly an asshole.

However, to assume that everyone thinks like you do, that all the white people who voted for him believed he was guilty and didn't care is incredibly cynical and arrogant. Please quit assuming that everyone who isn't on your side on every political issue is evil. This polarization HAS to stop

This causes a series of predictable responses from me:

I cannot meet them halfway because they are already polarized in the opposite direction that I am.

I cannot negotiate with them. All they want from me is my complete capitulation to their ideology

I cannot reason with them because they are reasoning from a place of irrational thought

I've been doing this crazy thing where I actually talk to people who disagree with me as well as looking at what people who aren't progressive liberals think. And no, contrary to popular belief, they aren't all white supremacist Nazis. But a lot of them say the EXACT same thing about the progressive left that you are saying about them.

This is why I've become so passionate about the first amendment. We need to have these conversations, try to understand other points of view and find common ground as well as ways to compromise. So I stand by my statement: the polarization and all or nothing attitude has to stop or all is lost

[geonuc]

You should probably stop insulting other people. I read quite a bit of contrary opinions on the various political issues, as I'm sure other FWIS members do. Don't make it out like you're the only one with an open mind.

As for passion for the 1st Amendment, again, you're not the Lone Ranger on that score. You should also probably remember that the 1st only applies to government suppression of speech. It has no bearing on suppression of conversation in social or other media by non-government entities.

[SciFi Chick]

You should probably stop insulting other people. I read quite a bit of contrary opinions on the various political issues, as I'm sure other FWIS members do. Don't make it out like you're the only one with an open mind.

As for passion for the 1st Amendment, again, you're not the Lone Ranger on that score. You should also probably remember that the 1st only applies to government suppression of speech. It has no bearing on suppression of conversation in social or other media by non-government entities.

Where did I insult anyone? I reckon I've been a helluva lot more polite than some.

[geonuc]

You should probably stop insulting other people. I read quite a bit of contrary opinions on the various political issues, as I'm sure other FWIS members do. Don't make it out like you're the only one with an open mind.

As for passion for the 1st Amendment, again, you're not the Lone Ranger on that score. You should also probably remember that the 1st only applies to government suppression of speech. It has no bearing on suppression of conversation in social or other media by non-government entities.

Where did I insult anyone? I reckon I've been a helluva lot more polite than some.

"I've been doing this crazy thing where I actually talk to people who disagree with me as well as looking at what people who aren't progressive liberals think."

Implies that the rest of us haven't been doing that 'crazy thing'. I don't believe it's the first time you've implied it.

If that wasn't your intention, then may I suggest you cut back on the sarcasm in serious threads because it isn't working.

[SciFi Chick]

I'm just giving up on discussing politics with any of you. It's too painful. Many of you are mean, hostile and condescending in ways that none of you are in person, so if I want to preserve any semblance of friendship, it's time to give this up.

[SciFiFisher]

I'm just giving up on discussing politics with any of you. It's too painful. Many of you are mean, hostile and condescending in ways that none of you are in person, so if I want to preserve any semblance of friendship, it's time to give this up.

To be honest I had a number of additional responses I was going to exchange with you. Then I realized that you and are closer to agreement about most of these things than we are apart. I, however, do have difficulty discussing any of the current crop of ignorant people's behavior without becoming very angry and passionate about the direction I see them pushing this country. Part of that anger is driven by fear. Fear inspired by what I know about history. Did you know that at the height of their power the Nazi Party only had 8.5 million members? They were only 12% of the German population. If you look at the total deaths, destruction, and the precarious path they set the world on it should scare anyone when a small percentage of people with radical ideologies highjack a cultural or a country. We are currently in the process of being high jacked by a coalition of white supremacists, evangelicals, and oligarchy supporting groups.

I could go into a very long explanation of why that should scare the bejeesuz out of you and every one else. But, I have no desire to keep hammering you. I just hope you, Zee, and your mom are getting a better deal in 2018 from the universe than you have been lately.

[SciFi Chick]

Thanks Fisher. I really appreciate that. *hugs*

[geonuc]

Well, since this thread has gone to shit, I'll do the FWIS thing and derail it completely.

We all know internet discussions can get out of hand with thoughts and opinions poorly expressed. As SFC says, we aren't the same in person. I'm guilty of this perhaps more than others.

I've met a few FWISers IRL and have unreservedly found each to be a fine person. I don't always agree with sentiments expressed here but in the whole, I value each of you and your opinions more than I do any other group of people. For one thing, everyone here is quite intelligent and able to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. And who doesn't like having intelligent, caring friends?

That said, I specifically apologize to SFC. I apparently had forgotten what a great person she is and have not treated her with the amount of respect she deserves. Sorry. I will do better. That goes for Zee, as well. I wish he had not left the forum (or Facebook, for that matter).

[pumpkinpi]

Well said.

[SciFi Chick]

Thanks geonuc. I've learned that some experiments fail, and for me, discussing politics dispassionately on the Internet is a fail.

I really appreciate your kind words.