Twenty years

[Cyborg Girl]

is an awfully long time to be shamed, ostracized, and convinced to blame yourself for your boss abusing you.

"Monica Lewinsky says Bill Clinton affair was ‘gross abuse of power’
Former intern says she suffered from PTSD after relationship and praises #MeToo movement"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... e-of-power

I literally whooped and jumped with joy when I saw the headline. Hope Lewinsky can finally get some peace of mind.

[Loresinger]

Ms. Lewinski had her own agenda IMO but that's just me

[SciFi Chick]

Ms. Lewinski had her own agenda IMO but that's just me

She was 22. He was 49 and leader of the free world.

[Thumper]

I know, he never had a chance...

[squ1d]

I know, he never had a chance...

lol

I think the main problem would have been dealing with the media fallout.

I can't speak for everyone else, but if getting seduced by and/or seducing an older more powerful person is the worst thing that's ever happened to you, then you're going pretty well.

PTSD? From media exposure and constant surveillance by media? I can maybe see that.

[SciFiFisher]

My personal favorite about that whole incident was the "best friend" who saved the dress with the incriminating evidence on it. You know, the one who leaked the story for Monica's own good.

[SciFi Chick]

I'm confused. How is this any different than Harvey Weinstein or Krauss? Sincere question.

[Thumper]

Well, first off, I don't believe Lewinsky ever claimed there was any rape, abuse, harassment, or mistreatment. Also no formal charges were ever leveled at Clinton claiming such. Lewinsky was pretty much played from all sides by multiple parties; from her friend who kept the dress and leaked the story, to the republicans in congress who were looking for ANY dirt on Clinton, to the Ken Starr investigation which was an expensive partisan debacle woefully in search of a crime. It started out investigating Whitewater. When it couldn't gain traction there it just kept going and going until it stumbled onto an alleged affair in the Whitehouse.

[Swift]

And here I thought this thread was going to be about Sgt. Pepper teaching the band to play.

[Rommie]

Lewinsky did a pretty awesome TED talk that I recommend everyone check out. And she starts it off pretty early on saying that her mistake as a 22 year old was falling in love with her boss, which yeah, she definitely was not the first person to have done that. This is also of course why most places I've ever worked at forbid workplace relationships between a boss and underling- it's definitely not a Weinstein-gate because there was consent, and Monica has never said there wasn't, but I think most reasonable people realize that is a terrible imbalance of power that can spectacularly backfire for the underling (and, of course, did).

Hearing about PTSD does not surprise me either if you listen to the rest of the TED talk- so many terrible things were said about her, there was a period where her mom made her shower with the door open because she legit was at suicide risk. Most people probably would be if we had our sex lives and characters dissected by the national media, and got all the threats and speculations with it that she surely had to endure. I find myself having great sympathy for her, reading the piece she wrote that prompted the article CG posted, where she says that she made mistakes, but how terrible being so publicly abandoned and isolated was. Whatever those mistakes were, she definitely doesn't deserve to live the rest of her life as the punchline of a joke:

Now, at 44, I’m beginning (just beginning) to consider the implications of the power differentials that were so vast between a president and a White House intern. I’m beginning to entertain the notion that in such a circumstance the idea of consent might well be rendered moot. (Although power imbalances—and the ability to abuse them—do exist even when the sex has been consensual.)

But it’s also complicated. Very, very complicated. The dictionary definition of “consent”? “To give permission for something to happen.” And yet what did the “something” mean in this instance, given the power dynamics, his position, and my age? Was the “something” just about crossing a line of sexual (and later emotional) intimacy? (An intimacy I wanted—with a 22-year-old’s limited understanding of the consequences.) He was my boss. He was the most powerful man on the planet. He was 27 years my senior, with enough life experience to know better. He was, at the time, at the pinnacle of his career, while I was in my first job out of college. (Note to the trolls, both Democratic and Republican: none of the above excuses me for my responsibility for what happened. I meet Regret every day.)

I don't think the media coverage would have played out the same way had this all come out today, for sure. (Even if Clinton was president today, to be clear.) But I think the Lewinsky case is going to take a little while for us to parse and unpack, even if it was 20 years ago.

[SciFi Chick]

I pretty much agree with everything you said Rommie. My comparison to Weinstein and Krauss was the power dynamic aspect not the rape/sexual assault part.

[SciFi Chick]

Well, first off, I don't believe Lewinsky ever claimed there was any rape, abuse, harassment, or mistreatment.

Where we disagree is that in my opinion abuse victims don't always know they're abuse victims, and I believe this was an abuse of power on Clinton's part.

[Cyborg Girl]

Well, first off, I don't believe Lewinsky ever claimed there was any rape, abuse, harassment, or mistreatment.

Neither have a lot of abuse victims, at first. Trust me on this, denial goes DEEP in humans including victims and survivors. It's often a lot easier to believe something bad being done to you was your fault - the human mind balks at loss of control.

Also no formal charges were ever leveled at Clinton claiming such.

Even if she had felt right then that she was coerced, it would have been dangerous to her to try. Look how much shit she went through, and how much more of the blame she took, WITHOUT accusing a popular standing President of rape.

And yeah - that kind of systematic harassment and guilt does cause lasting trauma. I was treated a lot less badly growing up, and still get nightmares about it. Feeling like everyone sees you and hates you is HUGELY damaging.

(If this comes across angry BTW, don't worry, the anger isn't at you. But yeah, I have nothing but deepest sympathy to Lewinsky. Her mistreatment makes mine look like a vacation.)

[SciFiFisher]

Well, first off, I don't believe Lewinsky ever claimed there was any rape, abuse, harassment, or mistreatment.

Where we disagree is that in my opinion abuse victims don't always know they're abuse victims, and I believe this was an abuse of power on Clinton's part.

It was an abuse of power. It was not a classic case of sexual harrassment or rape. Monica Lewinski was 22 years old and she was a white house intern and then worked in the white house. She had a horrible case of hero worship for Bill Clinton and as Rommie stated she was "in love with her boss".

BUT... The power differential being what it was should have made Bill Clinton just a bit more cognizant that what he was engaging in was not a classical case of two consensual adults having an intimate encounter. There is a reason that ethical standards exist. There is a reason for that oh so trite saying from Spiderman... "With great power comes great responsibility."

Having said that I also believe that Monica Lewinski was an adult and had the right to make her choices without the entire world dissecting her and subjecting her to the ordeal she went through. In a more ideal world she would have had her affair with Bill, realized that Bill was never going to leave Hilary, and quietly moved on. Sadly, she was not allowed that dignity or grace.

There was never any indication that Bill actually forced her or required her to engage in sex as a condition of her employment. But, that huge power differential would have made it hard for her to say no even if she had not been as enamored of Bill as she was. And a less naive Monica might have realized that. And then she would have felt coerced. And that would have been awkward.

[Thumper]

I pretty much agree with the most recent posts. It's not my argument that it wasn't wrong, or that Clinton shouldn't have engaged in intimate activities with Lewinsky. Actually, I don't have an argument. The question was asked, "How is this any different than Harvey Weinstein or Krauss?"
Both of these men have had serious sexual assualt, sexual misconduct charges leveled against them by multiple women. As far as I know, that is different from the case of the former President. That is all.

[squ1d]

I'm with ya Thump.

Also I absolutely think the media onslaught was what caused the trauma. I don't know how people deal with that negative spotlight.

Nobody seems to disagree the relationship was inappropriate or that it was consensual.

There is a huge tendency to conflate things at the moment. And forget the harmful role the media can play.

Don't conflate that with Trump #fakenews.

[SciFi Chick]

I pretty much agree with the most recent posts. It's not my argument that it wasn't wrong, or that Clinton shouldn't have engaged in intimate activities with Lewinsky. Actually, I don't have an argument. The question was asked, "How is this any different than Harvey Weinstein or Krauss?"
Both of these men have had serious sexual assualt, sexual misconduct charges leveled against them by multiple women. As far as I know, that is different from the case of the former President. That is all.

That might be different where Lewinsky is concerned but he has certainly been accused by several women.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cl ... llegations

[Cyborg Girl]

Yeah, this was covered by Andrea Dworkin. In The Guardian in 1998. Seriously.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1998/jan/29/gender.uk

You can take or leave the FBI bait, but the talking points are real, and so is the burning rage at injustice. (It's Dworkin, what did you expect?!)

(Note, I tend to avoid radical feminists these days - it helps that a lot of them consider my existence an abomination - but their past social contributions are undeniable. Kind of like with MLK or Susan B. Anthony, you have to accept the good they've done as well as the bad.)

[Thumper]

I pretty much agree with the most recent posts. It's not my argument that it wasn't wrong, or that Clinton shouldn't have engaged in intimate activities with Lewinsky. Actually, I don't have an argument. The question was asked, "How is this any different than Harvey Weinstein or Krauss?"
Both of these men have had serious sexual assualt, sexual misconduct charges leveled against them by multiple women. As far as I know, that is different from the case of the former President. That is all.

That might be different where Lewinsky is concerned but he has certainly been accused by several women.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cl ... llegations

From your link:

(in the case of Broaddrick and Willey) they previously testified, under oath, that Clinton never made unwanted advances. Several witnesses close to Willey and Jones state that the two women described their encounter with Clinton as consensual.

[Cyborg Girl]

Again: denial runs deep.

I think a lot of "retroactive rape" stuff is a matter of people misunderstanding the context. In many cases it was coercive from the start, never consensual, and the perps damn well knew: but the victims couldn't admit it to themselves for a long time, out of shame, guilt, and uncertainty.

And yes, this is ALSO something I've learned from experience. Alas.

[SciFi Chick]

I pretty much agree with the most recent posts. It's not my argument that it wasn't wrong, or that Clinton shouldn't have engaged in intimate activities with Lewinsky. Actually, I don't have an argument. The question was asked, "How is this any different than Harvey Weinstein or Krauss?"
Both of these men have had serious sexual assualt, sexual misconduct charges leveled against them by multiple women. As far as I know, that is different from the case of the former President. That is all.

That might be different where Lewinsky is concerned but he has certainly been accused by several women.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cl ... llegations

From your link:

(in the case of Broaddrick and Willey) they previously testified, under oath, that Clinton never made unwanted advances. Several witnesses close to Willey and Jones state that the two women described their encounter with Clinton as consensual.

Clinton declared, under oath, that he didn't have sex with Lewinsky.

I'm not trying to be difficult Thumper, but I think my comparison to Krauss and Weinstein is valid. The metoo movement is dangerous as it is, but we can't just agree with it when it's Trump talking about grabbing pussy and then disagree with it when it's about Clinton or some other favorite. (As an example, I was mightily disappointed by what we learned about Kevin Spacey.)

[Thumper]

Yes, Clinton perjured himself. It also appears that one or more of these women also lied under oath. I think at this point, that's about all we know or can agree on.

[Thumper]

OR,
Maybe they didn't. When push came shove and they were under oath, they admitted that they were not pressured, or coerced; that any intimate activity between them and Clinton was consensual. I certainly don't know exactly what happened in those private moments and neither does anyone else. But you have this juggernaut of a Starr investigation desperate to justify it's hugely expensive existence. They dug up absolutely everything they could on Clinton, and issued subpoenas, and took testimony. They couldn't get one person to say they were abused or coerced by the president. All they got in the end was Clinton denying under oath that he had a consensual relationship with Lewinsky.

I may be naive, but I would think with all that firepower, if there was ever a time to get Clinton, that was time to make something stick. They couldn't even get an accusation.

[Cyborg Girl]

Thumper: you'd think wrong, in part because coercion, intimidation, and abuse are more nebulous than the legal definition of stuff like sexual assault. Many forms of emotional abuse are completely legal, and may not be considered when e.g. trying to get a restraining order. (Edit: ask me how I know this some time...)

Quoting Judith Herman, an expert on incest trauma and PTSD:

The legal system is designed to protect men from the superior power of the state but not to protect women or children from the superior power of men. It therefore provides strong guarantees for the rights of the accused but essentially no guarantees for the rights of the victim. If one set out by design to devise a system for provoking intrusive post-traumatic symptoms, one could not do better than a court of law.

In a lot of cases, lying under oath to protect your abuser is easier and safer than telling the truth.

[Cyborg Girl]

thumper, squ1d, I'm gonna leave this here too:

https://barcc.org/information/facts

- About one in three women and one in six men in the United States have experienced some form of contact sexual violence during their lifetime. Nearly one in five women (18.3%) and one in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey)
- Almost one in two transgender people (47%) surveyed have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. (U.S. Transgender Survey)
- One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old. (National Sexual Violence Resource Center)
- People with a disability of any kind have an age-adjusted rate of rape or sexual assault that is more than twice the rate for people without disabilities. (The National Crime Victimization Survey and the 2010 Massachusetts Behavior Risk Factor Surveillance System)
- One in five women and one in 16 men are sexually assaulted while in college. (National Sexual Violence Resource Center)

Even considering that a relatively small number of shitty people are responsible for most sexual assaults:

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2 ... predators/

That is a LOT of people who aren't and won't be convicted.

This is where a lot of the #MeToo stuff comes from. The legal system isn't, won't be, and can't be adequate to the task, because our culture coddles abusers on pretty much all levels.