Buckle Up Buttercup

[geonuc]

And if the Russians are convicted, does that mean the election is nullified?

Sorry, no.

[SciFi Chick]

And if the Russians are convicted, does that mean the election is nullified?

Sorry, no.

No need to be sorry. I don't see a short term solution to this cluster fuck. I was merely asking out of curiosity. In a way, it makes sense not to have a mechanism like that for the same reasons you outlined that make it not a good idea to sue or prosecute a sitting President.

Then again, if you had an election that was literally rigged, wouldn't you have to do something? Otherwise, why bother voting at all?

[geonuc]

Then again, if you had an election that was literally rigged, wouldn't you have to do something? Otherwise, why bother voting at all?

Can't argue with that but I don't know what the something would be other than to vote. On a larger scale (larger than individual voting), public demonstrations have in the past effected change. We ended the Vietnam War and forced real civil rights change that way. I'm not certain that remedy is effective anymore. I'm not certain what is effective anymore given the current state of gerrymandering in this country. Gerrymandering is, in my mind, literally rigging elections.

[Sigma_Orionis]

.....Then again, if you had an election that was literally rigged, wouldn't you have to do something? Otherwise, why bother voting at all?

Depends on what you call "rigging" (and no, it's not splitting hairs) Here in Bananaland we've got plenty of experience with that.

The way I see it, the evidence pointing to a Russian attempt at influencing public opinion in the US 2016 presidential election is pretty strong. I wouldn't call that "rigging an election" though

- A more crude way to influence public opinion is what the government used to do here: The central government directly using public funds to finance goods or food to voters as a way of promoting its candidates. (an old Latin American tradition I must say)

- Credible claims about the vulnerability of your electoral infrastructure (ie Voting Machines) are not new. I remember reading about it back in the late 90s and Voting Machine Vendors (like Diebold) ignored those warnings plenty of times. Apparently, your intelligence agencies also detected Russian attempts at hacking those machines, although is not clear if those attempts were successful

- There have been plenty of claims of US State governments (and let's not mention your President's "electoral fraud" commission) trying to restrict voting and de-register voters (particularly minority voters). ASSUMING that is true, it tells me that voting still makes a difference in your country.

And of course there's outright rigging like they do on Russia, or here. Where the government jails opponents, makes political parties jump through impossible hoops to register (or re-register), or arbitrarily delays or speeds the electoral calendar for their advantage and directly offers bribes to voters (as our government has done since 2015). In THAT particular case, I decided it wasn't worth going to vote.

ETA: I did forget a couple of other things our government did, like moving voting centers with virtually no warning and the strong suspicion that they rigged the voting machines themselves since the vendor left the country and indicated that the vote count in a very suspect election to choose members of that illegal constitutional assembly of 2017 were off by at least 1 million votes.

[Thumper]

The way I see it, the evidence pointing to a Russian attempt at influencing public opinion in the US 2016 presidential election is pretty strong. I wouldn't call that "rigging an election" though.

They did their homework, and realized they didn't have to work too hard to outright rig an election. They found such and apathetic, uniformed, gullible voting block, with many who were not going to vote at all. They make a few facebook posts that discourage just enough percentage of voters to stay at home or vote for anyone other than Clinton, and the morons do all the work for you. No threats, jails, corrupted machines or officials need get involved.

[Sigma_Orionis]

The way I see it, the evidence pointing to a Russian attempt at influencing public opinion in the US 2016 presidential election is pretty strong. I wouldn't call that "rigging an election" though.

They did their homework, and realized they didn't have to work too hard to outright rig an election. They found such and apathetic, uniformed, gullible voting block, with many who were not going to vote at all. They make a few facebook posts that discourage just enough percentage of voters to stay at home or vote for anyone other than Clinton, and the morons do all the work for you. No threats, jails, corrupted machines or officials need get involved.

Typical Russian tactic. Find useful idiots to do the hard work for you

[Rommie]

The way I see it, the evidence pointing to a Russian attempt at influencing public opinion in the US 2016 presidential election is pretty strong. I wouldn't call that "rigging an election" though.

They did their homework, and realized they didn't have to work too hard to outright rig an election. They found such and apathetic, uniformed, gullible voting block, with many who were not going to vote at all. They make a few facebook posts that discourage just enough percentage of voters to stay at home or vote for anyone other than Clinton, and the morons do all the work for you. No threats, jails, corrupted machines or officials need get involved.

Yes. I think one serious interpretation for what's happened is also that even if Trump wasn't aware of it (there's a legit chance others were just using him for gain, and he's too idiotic/senile to notice), he still won't speak up about the Russians because he doesn't mind if they do it again. That is pretty fucking shocking if you think about it.

I have noticed that there seems to be much more of an outcry than some previous things though, and hope that continues. I saw Nate Silver say it best, you can always say this won't be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and be almost right, but you'll also always miss the time the straw breaks the camel's back.

[SciFiFisher]

Yes. I think one serious interpretation for what's happened is also that even if Trump wasn't aware of it (there's a legit chance others were just using him for gain, and he's too idiotic/senile to notice), he still won't speak up about the Russians because he doesn't mind if they do it again. That is pretty fucking shocking if you think about it.

I have noticed that there seems to be much more of an outcry than some previous things though, and hope that continues. I saw Nate Silver say it best, you can always say this won't be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and be almost right, but you'll also always miss the time the straw breaks the camel's back.

IMO Trump colluded with the Russians. He is a traitor. And there was a conspiracy. Having said that. One pundit today suggested that even if all of that were NOT true Trump still cannot admit that the Russians interfered in our election and helped him win. He CAN NOT admit the Russians hacked our election because then it means he did not win legitimately. He literally cannot contemplate anything that would de-legitimize his winning the election. And because of who and what he is he becomes Putin's useful idiot.

Frankly, I am not sure which version scares me more. Willing traitor or Useful idiot. Because that means that 63 million people would rather vote for an idiot than a candidate who actually understood how to stand up to Putin.

[Thumper]

Yes. I think one serious interpretation for what's happened is also that even if Trump wasn't aware of it (there's a legit chance others were just using him for gain, and he's too idiotic/senile to notice), he still won't speak up about the Russians because he doesn't mind if they do it again. That is pretty fucking shocking if you think about it.

I have noticed that there seems to be much more of an outcry than some previous things though, and hope that continues. I saw Nate Silver say it best, you can always say this won't be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and be almost right, but you'll also always miss the time the straw breaks the camel's back.

IMO Trump colluded with the Russians. He is a traitor. And there was a conspiracy. Having said that. One pundit today suggested that even if all of that were NOT true Trump still cannot admit that the Russians interfered in our election and helped him win. He CAN NOT admit the Russians hacked our election because then it means he did not win legitimately. He literally cannot contemplate anything that would de-legitimize his winning the election. And because of who and what he is he becomes Putin's useful idiot.

Frankly, I am not sure which version scares me more. Willing traitor or Useful idiot. Because that means that 63 million people would rather vote for an idiot than a candidate who actually understood how to stand up to Putin.

That's all well and good, but I didn't say any of the above in that quote.

[SciFiFisher]

Yes. I think one serious interpretation for what's happened is also that even if Trump wasn't aware of it (there's a legit chance others were just using him for gain, and he's too idiotic/senile to notice), he still won't speak up about the Russians because he doesn't mind if they do it again. That is pretty fucking shocking if you think about it.

I have noticed that there seems to be much more of an outcry than some previous things though, and hope that continues. I saw Nate Silver say it best, you can always say this won't be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and be almost right, but you'll also always miss the time the straw breaks the camel's back.

IMO Trump colluded with the Russians. He is a traitor. And there was a conspiracy. Having said that. One pundit today suggested that even if all of that were NOT true Trump still cannot admit that the Russians interfered in our election and helped him win. He CAN NOT admit the Russians hacked our election because then it means he did not win legitimately. He literally cannot contemplate anything that would de-legitimize his winning the election. And because of who and what he is he becomes Putin's useful idiot.

Frankly, I am not sure which version scares me more. Willing traitor or Useful idiot. Because that means that 63 million people would rather vote for an idiot than a candidate who actually understood how to stand up to Putin.

That's all well and good, but I didn't say any of the above in that quote.

You people and your embedded qoutes.


Mea Culpa. It does appear that I meant to keep Rommie's comment and respond to it.

[Rommie]

Yes. I think one serious interpretation for what's happened is also that even if Trump wasn't aware of it (there's a legit chance others were just using him for gain, and he's too idiotic/senile to notice), he still won't speak up about the Russians because he doesn't mind if they do it again. That is pretty fucking shocking if you think about it.

I have noticed that there seems to be much more of an outcry than some previous things though, and hope that continues. I saw Nate Silver say it best, you can always say this won't be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and be almost right, but you'll also always miss the time the straw breaks the camel's back.

IMO Trump colluded with the Russians. He is a traitor. And there was a conspiracy. Having said that. One pundit today suggested that even if all of that were NOT true Trump still cannot admit that the Russians interfered in our election and helped him win. He CAN NOT admit the Russians hacked our election because then it means he did not win legitimately. He literally cannot contemplate anything that would de-legitimize his winning the election. And because of who and what he is he becomes Putin's useful idiot.

Frankly, I am not sure which version scares me more. Willing traitor or Useful idiot. Because that means that 63 million people would rather vote for an idiot than a candidate who actually understood how to stand up to Putin.

The cynic in me argues it hardly matters, we still get the same result of a Manchurian/Siberian candidate.

Fun fact, on Monday my sister sent out a family email, the first in many months, basically saying how could one not say Trump is a traitor. I've gotten emails from this week about my brother's wedding, Jupiter's moons, and books, but there's a gaping silence going on on that front.

[Thumper]

No emails about Mars looking as big as a full moon?

[pumpkinpi]

No emails about Mars looking as big as a full moon?

[SciFiFisher]

Yes. I think one serious interpretation for what's happened is also that even if Trump wasn't aware of it (there's a legit chance others were just using him for gain, and he's too idiotic/senile to notice), he still won't speak up about the Russians because he doesn't mind if they do it again. That is pretty fucking shocking if you think about it.

I have noticed that there seems to be much more of an outcry than some previous things though, and hope that continues. I saw Nate Silver say it best, you can always say this won't be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and be almost right, but you'll also always miss the time the straw breaks the camel's back.

IMO Trump colluded with the Russians. He is a traitor. And there was a conspiracy. Having said that. One pundit today suggested that even if all of that were NOT true Trump still cannot admit that the Russians interfered in our election and helped him win. He CAN NOT admit the Russians hacked our election because then it means he did not win legitimately. He literally cannot contemplate anything that would de-legitimize his winning the election. And because of who and what he is he becomes Putin's useful idiot.

Frankly, I am not sure which version scares me more. Willing traitor or Useful idiot. Because that means that 63 million people would rather vote for an idiot than a candidate who actually understood how to stand up to Putin.

The cynic in me argues it hardly matters, we still get the same result of a Manchurian/Siberian candidate.

Fun fact, on Monday my sister sent out a family email, the first in many months, basically saying how could one not say Trump is a traitor. I've gotten emails from this week about my brother's wedding, Jupiter's moons, and books, but there's a gaping silence going on on that front.

It took a couple of days but the Trump base is trying to man splain it all away by claiming it's Trump Derangement Syndrome. Trump was just building a better relationship with Russia and all of us with TDS should just get over it. I suppose it's easier for them to think we have a mental problem. After all, if they admit Trump looks guilty as hell and appears to be the biggest traitor to our country since Benedict Arnold that makes them accomplices. Kind of hard to admit you helped sell out your own country because you believed a man like Trump. Not that I plan to give them much sympathy or cut them any slack over it.

[Sigma_Orionis]

It took a couple of days but the Trump base is trying to man splain it all away by claiming it's Trump Derangement Syndrome. Trump was just building a better relationship with Russia and all of us with TDS should just get over it. I suppose it's easier for them to think we have a mental problem. After all, if they admit Trump looks guilty as hell and appears to be the biggest traitor to our country since Benedict Arnold that makes them accomplices. Kind of hard to admit you helped sell out your own country because you believed a man like Trump. Not that I plan to give them much sympathy or cut them any slack over it.

I think you're wrong. They voted for him and still root for the SOB, not because they believed him. But, BECAUSE they want to spite the "damned liberals". Which is worse by several orders of magnitude and much less worthy of sympathy

[SciFiFisher]

It took a couple of days but the Trump base is trying to man splain it all away by claiming it's Trump Derangement Syndrome. Trump was just building a better relationship with Russia and all of us with TDS should just get over it. I suppose it's easier for them to think we have a mental problem. After all, if they admit Trump looks guilty as hell and appears to be the biggest traitor to our country since Benedict Arnold that makes them accomplices. Kind of hard to admit you helped sell out your own country because you believed a man like Trump. Not that I plan to give them much sympathy or cut them any slack over it.

I think you're wrong. They voted for him and still root for the SOB, not because they believed him. But, BECAUSE they want to spite the "damned liberals". Which is worse by several orders of magnitude and much less worthy of sympathy

So... More like Khan from Star Trek.

Khan: [quoting from Melville's Moby Dick] To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

ETA: I have noticed a trend that seems to be part of the problem. People seem to resent it if other people might be getting a break or something they aren't. And instead of saying "Let's find a way for all of us to benefit" they say "If I can't have it then that other guy shouldn't have it either!!" and they work really hard to stop the other guy from getting it or they work really hard to take it away from the other guy. As long as the "other" is as ir more miserable than they are it's "fair".

[Thumper]

ETA: I have noticed a trend that seems to be part of the problem. People seem to resent it if other people might be getting a break or something they aren't. And instead of saying "Let's find a way for all of us to benefit" they say "If I can't have it then that other guy shouldn't have it either!!" and they work really hard to stop the other guy from getting it or they work really hard to take it away from the other guy. As long as the "other" is as ir more miserable than they are it's "fair".

That's the way it's been inside my organization for years...

[Sigma_Orionis]

Heh I found someone that agrees with me

The G.O.P. has lost its way because it has been selling itself for years to whoever could keep it in power, and that is now Trump and his base. And Trump’s base actually hates the people who hate Trump — i.e., liberals who they think look down on members of the base — more than it cares about Trump. This is about culture, not politics, and culture doesn’t change with the news cycle. And neither do business models — and Fox News’s business model is to feed, and feed off of, that culture war by allowing many of its commentators to be Trump’s parrots and bullhorns.

[SciFi Chick]

Heh I found someone that agrees with me

The G.O.P. has lost its way because it has been selling itself for years to whoever could keep it in power, and that is now Trump and his base. And Trump’s base actually hates the people who hate Trump — i.e., liberals who they think look down on members of the base — more than it cares about Trump. This is about culture, not politics, and culture doesn’t change with the news cycle. And neither do business models — and Fox News’s business model is to feed, and feed off of, that culture war by allowing many of its commentators to be Trump’s parrots and bullhorns.

"liberals who they think look down on members of the base" You mean, liberals who look down on members of the base. Let's not lie about what's going on here.

[SciFiFisher]

Heh I found someone that agrees with me

The G.O.P. has lost its way because it has been selling itself for years to whoever could keep it in power, and that is now Trump and his base. And Trump’s base actually hates the people who hate Trump — i.e., liberals who they think look down on members of the base — more than it cares about Trump. This is about culture, not politics, and culture doesn’t change with the news cycle. And neither do business models — and Fox News’s business model is to feed, and feed off of, that culture war by allowing many of its commentators to be Trump’s parrots and bullhorns.

"liberals who they think look down on members of the base" You mean, liberals who look down on members of the base. Let's not lie about what's going on here.

Does it matter? The Trump base hates and despises "All Liberals". And they pretty much include anyone in that category who does not think Trump is the second coming of Christ. So they would probably think the liberals "look down" on them even if the liberals didn't. The liberals do look down on them. I could give you a list of reasons why but you have heard them all before.


The sad thing is that I am NOT a liberal. I voted Republican in almost every major way until the last 10 years when I saw what was becoming of the Republican party. I voted against Obama in 2004 for fucks sake. And then I watched the Republican party become the Mad Hatter Tea Party and then they became the Trump Party. I fight every day not to despise them. Look down on them? That barely describes how I feel about the average Trump voter.

[Sigma_Orionis]

"liberals who they think look down on members of the base" You mean, liberals who look down on members of the base. Let's not lie about what's going on here.

Are there plenty of sanctimonious assholes among your "liberals"? sure. They voted for Trump to spite them despite being warned what kind of an idiot he is? whatever. Yet, they seem to continue to support the idiot despite showing he's everything he was feared to be and worse. He, IMHO is the biggest internal threat to your country since I don't know when.

Let's see:

- He's starting a worldwide trade war because he's too stupid to even try to understand how international commerce works.-

Is China taking advantage of you? Yes, they are, and the best way do deal with them was the much maligned TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) which Trump walked out on the day after he entered office (AND IIRC Sanders railed against it so much, that Clinton flip-flopped on it in an attempt to attract Sanders' supporters after the primary)

Are you losing jobs to NAFTA? Nope, you are losing jobs to AUTOMATION

Is the EU taking advantage of the US because trade deficits? BS, he conveniently forgets to include services in the the mix. Where the US exports a lot more than imports.

- He spent the better part of last year and the first part of this year threatening to start WWIII to end up in a Photo-op that just made Kim Jong Un look like a a world class player in exchange for nothing. It was so pathetic that not even Fox News tried to spin it.

- The only winner in the current ruckus he's raising up with NATO is the Russians. And, NO, NATO members, despite their reticence to increase their defense spending are not taking advantage of you. As a matter of fact, the only time Article 5 of the NATO was invoked was in 9/11, when members of that treaty rallied AROUND the US. So , in light of that pathetic news conference he gave with Putin and his unending flip flops on it, is, all his railing about NATO is at best EXTREMELY worrying.

I am obviously staying away from his domestic policies. After all, I don't live in the US. However, in light of the above, if his supporters still rally around him and still defend him just because they're spiting those damned snotty sanctimonious liberals, all they're doing, is justifying them snotty sanctimonious liberals. Because the DSA, or the PSFs or even the people who only care for "Identity Politics" aren't the only members of your Democratic party. As a matter of fact they're not even the majority. And they haven't hijacked the party. Like it happened to the Republicans, first with the Tea Party and later with Trump and his base.

Yet, even if they're too stupid or too fanatical to change course, they aren't the only ones that helped him to power. Those over 100 million people who couldn't be bothered to vote did a good deal of the job.

[Rommie]

Just wanted to revise this thread to say I feel so terrible for Christine Blasey Ford. Honestly my main reaction in all this mess. It sounds like she had already decided he would likely be accepted as a judge in August, so why ruin her life over nothing, but got dragged into things anyway and now had to move over death threats and have random strangers talk shit about her for a traumatic thing that happened when she was 15.

I also genuinely don't know if this would be enough to hold up the Kavanaugh train barreling down the tracks, but I do think it's a pretty damn potent symbol of how things stand if he gets confirmed despite all this.

[Cyborg Girl]

Gods, yes. It's bad enough coming out with this stuff to therapists, I can't imagine doing in front of Congress.

And as for Kavanaugh, I bet that this is only his first rape that's been publicized. Men who do these things almost never stop at just one - especially, I'd think, ones who start before they're even legal adults. Talk about having criminal tendencies early on, goddamn.

[SciFiFisher]

What is really freaky is that Trump is actually sounding very restrained in his responses to Ms. Ford's accusations. Mind you he's not condemning Kavanaugh or saying that he will withdraw his nomination but he is not coming out and attacking Ford and the Dems the way he usually does. I don't know if that means he knows the guy is damaged goods or what.

Also noteworthy. The day after these allegations came out Kavanaugh (or the Republicans) produced a letter purporting to be from 65 women all supporting Kavanaugh. A couple of days later the rumors were that they could only actually find 2-3 of those 65 women who were actually willing to go on the record in support of the man.

My first statement to Brite when I heard about that letter was. "They knew about this skeleton in the closet. The fact that they had a response to it as quickly as they did proves they knew about this. And they (the Republicans) were going to just pretend it didn't exist as long as no one brought it up."

[Rommie]

Well it sounds like some (Feinstein) knew there was an anonymous letter on the judiciary committee, they just didn't care.

I agree on the Trump thing. The best explanation I've heard is his handlers are telling him if this guy falls he can nominate someone else and get them through and call that a victory, so why defend this. Plus it doesn't take a genius to realize someone who assaults women himself probably shouldn't be saying too much about this topic.