The Fate of the Frog Men

[Thumper]

It did answer one aspect, but I'm already aware of that aspect, having lived it, so it just felt like you weren't answering my question, because I was thinking of the other aspects. Too many people want to take tests like this and just assume that it means women and minorities aren't as well equipped as white men. I don't buy that, any more than I buy the idea that women can physically, as a general rule, do anything a man can. It's very difficult to tell when something is biased and when it's straight forward.

I wasn't accusing you, btw. I just meant that my questions about this subject aren't fully answered, and I'm starting to suspect they won't be any time soon.

Gotcha.

[Rommie]

Busy thread! To answer more on the GRE question:

1) The type of school really matters for GRE performance. I'm not talking about just Ivy League vs community college here- it's also well documented that students from liberal arts colleges do not do well at the GRE, because that type of education is not conducive to test taking. Some departments are also small in those places and can't offer courses every year, so it's not unheard of to say not take quantum mechanics until your senior year... and because you have to take the test either end of junior year or beginning of senior year, you're fucked. (At this point, I should point out that of course women favor liberal arts colleges, and traditionally minority colleges also tend to have small physics departments.)

2) The test is really expensive- not sure how much it is now, but it was like $150 when I took it, and then you had to pay extra to send the scores to more than three schools, and can only be taken in specific locations three times a year. What's more, you can take it multiple times, and the only score that matters is your top one. I'm sure tons of students would do better if they could take it more times, but can't afford it or have scheduling constraints.

3) This is obviously an exam that requires you to do a ton of extra studying beyond usual coursework to do well on. To emphasize this, I never really had to memorize equations before in physics for exams, because it's pretty well-demonstrated there's no point when you can look them up, so they'd either be on the exam or you could make a cheat sheet to bring in (an index card or whatever). First thing you have to do when studying for the GRE? Literally memorize about 150 equations! That took a lot of time! Then, because of the nature of the test (100 questions in 90 minutes), you literally can't work out all the problems as you normally would, so need to learn "tricks" like how to take limits to see where the answer will go, dimensional analysis, and all sorts of other stupid shit you're probably not going to use outside this artificial exam setting. College is already a super busy time, but at least I could carve out time to do it- it's not hard to imagine if you had a job with long hours or family to attend to you're just not going to do it.

4) To emphasize on the latter, it's been documented through research for example that in Latina families care of the family falls on women (I've also had Latina friends say this to me- of course you love your little siblings and want to help out, but guess who's expected to babysit in college still while your brother isn't?). Pretty obvious how that would affect something like point 3. I'm sure there are a ton of other things like that, some more subtle and some less so, that are too extensive to document here, but that's the first one I thought of.

To close, this might be anecdotal but Xander in the Netherlands (who's overseen over 100 astronomy PhDs, so think he knows what he's talking about more than anyone I know) has said that he has never met a student incapable of finishing a PhD. He's had students who needed to switch projects, or had family/life matters intervene, or other external things, but at the end of the day if you have the drive and ability to be accepted into a PhD program that person is good enough to finish. I will note though, the Netherlands does not require the Physics GRE.

But yes, I think your comparison to the insanity of residency is apt (which also is more likely to affect these minorities, of course). There's a lot of things in getting a PhD that are like that actually.

[SciFi Chick]

Bias and implicit bias gets on my nerves. Yes, we need to deal with it. But sometimes it does my head in. Like today - I was doing laundry in a laundromat. At first there were a few people in there, but by the time I was finishing up, it was just a black guy and me.

My stupid brain is all happy that I wasn't the least bit intimidated or frightened of him, both because he's male and black. I'm never afraid unless someone acts scary. But how sad is it that this thought would even cross my mind?

[Rommie]

Exactly! As I said, I think everyone has them, the trick is to be aware of them. And I think many people don't stop to think about how there's a difference between being racist and being prejudiced- I don't think most people are neo-Nazis by any means, but implicit biases are a form of prejudice even if you really are trying not to be. Unfortunately though, because many lack the distinction, I think a lot of people just shut down when discussions of this stuff happens with an "I'm not racist!" Like, good for you, but that's not exactly what's being discussed.

At least, that's what I've noticed on this topic, your milage may vary.

I am happy though that at least we are forced to have these discussions now. I am a child of the 90s, when in school we only discussed race in terms of Jim Crow, and MLK, and practically said "and they lived happily ever after!" at the end of it. I never really heard about implicit bias until a few years ago, instead belonging to the huge generation of people who just never discussed race much at home or in school, because that's all in the past now. I don't think that's how I will be going about it with my theoretical future child.

[Thumper]

I never knew that Theo was short for Theoretical. And it's interesting that you've named your son before you're even engaged.

[SciFiFisher]

Bias and implicit bias gets on my nerves. Yes, we need to deal with it. But sometimes it does my head in. Like today - I was doing laundry in a laundromat. At first there were a few people in there, but by the time I was finishing up, it was just a black guy and me.

My stupid brain is all happy that I wasn't the least bit intimidated or frightened of him, both because he's male and black. I'm never afraid unless someone acts scary. But how sad is it that this thought would even cross my mind?

Be glad you don't have a brain that is biased to view EVERYONE as a potential threat.

[pumpkinpi]

Bias and implicit bias gets on my nerves. Yes, we need to deal with it. But sometimes it does my head in. Like today - I was doing laundry in a laundromat. At first there were a few people in there, but by the time I was finishing up, it was just a black guy and me.

My stupid brain is all happy that I wasn't the least bit intimidated or frightened of him, both because he's male and black. I'm never afraid unless someone acts scary. But how sad is it that this thought would even cross my mind?

I have that series of thoughts quite often.

Just imagine how it feels on the other end. "I wonder if that woman is intimidated or frightened of me, because I'm male and black?"

(Sorry, that isn't to be argumentative against you.)

[Thumper]

Bias and implicit bias gets on my nerves. Yes, we need to deal with it. But sometimes it does my head in. Like today - I was doing laundry in a laundromat. At first there were a few people in there, but by the time I was finishing up, it was just a black guy and me.

My stupid brain is all happy that I wasn't the least bit intimidated or frightened of him, both because he's male and black. I'm never afraid unless someone acts scary. But how sad is it that this thought would even cross my mind?

Be glad you don't have a brain that is biased to view EVERYONE as a potential threat.

I used to work with that guy. He was a retired State Highway Patrol Captain.