Buckle Up Buttercup

[SciFiFisher]

Gods, yes. It's bad enough coming out with this stuff to therapists, I can't imagine doing in front of Congress.

And as for Kavanaugh, I bet that this is only his first rape that's been publicized. Men who do these things almost never stop at just one - especially, I'd think, ones who start before they're even legal adults. Talk about having criminal tendencies early on, goddamn.

I don't pretend to be an expert on sexual deviants. I do know that if you had known me from about the age of 19-25 you would have considered me to be a less than stellar example of the human species. I don't think I am exaggerating to say I had some strong indicators that I might wind up in prison. There are people who make a serious error of judgment and who can atone for it.

Sadly, even before this allegation there were strong indicators that Kavanaugh is the least likely conservative I would want to see on the bench. I suspect that even if this were the ONLY instance in which he did something like this it is highly likely that we should not be considering him for a Supreme Court Judgeship. I think we need to have some very high standards for that position.

[SciFiFisher]

Well it sounds like some (Feinstein) knew there was an anonymous letter on the judiciary committee, they just didn't care.

I agree on the Trump thing. The best explanation I've heard is his handlers are telling him if this guy falls he can nominate someone else and get them through and call that a victory, so why defend this. Plus it doesn't take a genius to realize someone who assaults women himself probably shouldn't be saying too much about this topic.

Another theory I have heard is that he is starting to realize that he needs to cultivate voters that are not angry white men.

[Cyborg Girl]

@Fisher

Oh don't get me wrong, I sucked as a teenager; everyone does. But like, physically holding down Ford? Stifling her mouth so she couldn't yell, turning up the music so she couldn't be heard? That isn't standard shitty teenage behavior, he was thinking that through. He knew what he was doing, and I'm very okay with it sending his career and his life down the toilet decades later.

Edit: also like, from my own experiences - I have lasting trauma from sexual abuse by an older kid who was also a minor (and younger at the time than Kavanaugh). Not possible to prosecute, sure, but the fucker used exactly the same kind of gaslighting, shaming, and emotional coercion tactics that adult pederasts use.

There is a reason that sex offenders have such a high recidivism rate...

[Rommie]

I think even all that aside (as I don't think it's productive to speculate over whether he got better after his teenage years), he lied about it. Which IMO should disqualify from the Supreme Court.

[pumpkinpi]

Well, the people poised to confirm him don't really care when someone lies, do they?

How about this: it's not fair to have people who are in their last months of their current term voting to confirm a supreme court justice. How about we wait until after the elections and we see who is in office next term?

No? Nobody's saying that?

[Cyborg Girl]

Oh hey, I found a photo of Kavanaugh in his prep school days...

DI-A-Clockwork-Orange-5.jpg

[Rommie]

Well, the people poised to confirm him don't really care when someone lies, do they?

How about this: it's not fair to have people who are in their last months of their current term voting to confirm a supreme court justice. How about we wait until after the elections and we see who is in office next term?

No? Nobody's saying that?

Yeah, I think anyone who doesn't quite get what's going on can clearly see what is when you see that they're refusing to let the FBI investigate the story, and might even have a vote on Wednesday. Because obviously if you care about the truth over brushing this under the rug, you'd let them do their jobs!

Thinking about it further, I'm actually mainly surprised that Trump hasn't attacked Dr. Ford personally yet. I give him until the end of the weekend.

[SciFi Chick]

God. Goddess. Fuck. I hate having to dissent. I really don't like it. But I think this reeks of political machinations. She never said ANYTHING until now? And conveniently, if they can delay the vote and get a majority of Democrats in Congress, they can keep him from getting in at all?

We're supposed to just believe her?

I'm not saying I do or don't believe her, but this push for a big ol' investigation before voting is NOTHING but political! She went from anonymous to calling for an FBI investigation of a 30 YEAR OLD CASE! How are they supposed to do that?

Basically, anyone Trump nominates can randomly be accused of sexual assault and not get in. And I'm seeing this happen elsewhere. The woman that has the most stock in CBS and wants to be in charge was having no luck. Suddenly, the guy that's been in charge for years is accused of numerous sexual assaults. Now, she has what she wants.

Surely you all can see that just believing every woman who opens her mouth with or without evidence is a recipe for abuse and disaster.

I know. We're all upset about how the Republicans behaved over Obama's nomination. But how long do we get to be childish and say, "They started it." before we fix this mess? Honest question.

I write this on the heels of dealing with someone on Facebook who thinks Orrin Hatch is a problem because he's a white male. Come on!!!! He's just an asshole. It's not about privilege!!!

[SciFiFisher]

God. Goddess. Fuck. I hate having to dissent. I really don't like it. But I think this reeks of political machinations. She never said ANYTHING until now? And conveniently, if they can delay the vote and get a majority of Democrats in Congress, they can keep him from getting in at all?

We're supposed to just believe her?

I'm not saying I do or don't believe her, but this push for a big ol' investigation before voting is NOTHING but political! She went from anonymous to calling for an FBI investigation of a 30 YEAR OLD CASE! How are they supposed to do that?

Basically, anyone Trump nominates can randomly be accused of sexual assault and not get in. And I'm seeing this happen elsewhere. The woman that has the most stock in CBS and wants to be in charge was having no luck. Suddenly, the guy that's been in charge for years is accused of numerous sexual assaults. Now, she has what she wants.

Surely you all can see that just believing every woman who opens her mouth with or without evidence is a recipe for abuse and disaster.

I know. We're all upset about how the Republicans behaved over Obama's nomination. But how long do we get to be childish and say, "They started it." before we fix this mess? Honest question.

I write this on the heels of dealing with someone on Facebook who thinks Orrin Hatch is a problem because he's a white male. Come on!!!! He's just an asshole. It's not about privilege!!!

Here is the bottom line. It's actually fairly routine for the FBI to investigate these types of things. Even if they are at the "last minute". They don't do a criminal investigation per se. They do additional digging in regards to the background investigation. It's about the moral character of a person who will sit on the highest court of the land. It took the FBI less than a week to do enough investigation to provide the Senate Judiciary Committee to have a hearing with Anita Hill when she accused Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment. As of this week the Republicans, white house, and Kavanaugh have all vehemently protested the idea of having the FBI investigate. They literally are refusing to allow the FBI to do its job. The FBI could probably do enough investigating in less than a week to find out if the allegations against Kavanaugh have merit. They could still easily confirm him before the mid-term elections if they were willing to do the work.

Why do we believe "every" woman who makes a sexual assault accusation? Because it is already hard enough for victims of sexual crimes and harassment to come forward. The actual percentage of women or men who lie about it is very small. If the vast majority of the women who come forward are telling the truth then why shouldn't we treat "all" accusations as credible until proven otherwise? Yes, there are people who will use the sexual harassment card to gain an advantage. But, that's why we have investigations and follow due process. The Republicans are essentially saying "It's just a ploy so we shouldn't have to do anything". That's not how it works. You have a reasonably credible woman who has made an allegation. A reasonable investigation is not that much to ask for.

As for your question about how long we keep acting childish because the Republicans "started it". For the record, until recently I voted Republican in almost every major election. If you compared me to the Republican party of 30-40 years ago I would be solidly conservative. And none of that matters anymore. We are talking about a group of people who as an organization have stopped playing fair or working with the other side in any meaningful way. And for the foreseeable future, they have no intention of playing fair.

As for your comment about the "childish behavior" and why can't people get over it. I am guessing I don't have an answer that will satisfy you. I do know that the Republicans have dramatically changed how politics is done in this country over the last 10-12 years. And that the consequences of their behavior will have repercussions for a very long time. It's not a matter of "getting over it". It's a matter of trust and believing that the Republican party really honestly has the best interests of ALL the people in this country. I don't think they do.

[Rommie]

Why do we believe "every" woman who makes a sexual assault accusation? Because it is already hard enough for victims of sexual crimes and harassment to come forward. The actual percentage of women or men who lie about it is very small. If the vast majority of the women who come forward are telling the truth then why shouldn't we treat "all" accusations as credible until proven otherwise? Yes, there are people who will use the sexual harassment card to gain an advantage. But, that's why we have investigations and follow due process. The Republicans are essentially saying "It's just a ploy so we shouldn't have to do anything". That's not how it works. You have a reasonably credible woman who has made an allegation. A reasonable investigation is not that much to ask for.

This precisely. No one here has yet to hear what she has to say, or know how credible these allegations are. That's the whole point of having testimony, and ideally why the FBI would look into it, because that's part of their job (see: Anita Hill).

Until this all goes down, I choose to believe her and have tremendous sympathy. Of course if something comes out during the course of the investigation showing otherwise then I will amend that. But I really don't see why right now is the moment to do so.

[Thumper]

I was going to respond to SciFi's post but Fisher covered most of what I was going to try to say. I'll just repeat from his earlier post, less than a day after the allegation became public, a document or letter was produced apparently "signed" by 60 some women saying that Kavanaugh was a stand up guy. First, it's clear they had that letter ready and weren't going to use unless this became public (people have known about this allegation for some time). Second, I've seen reports that both men and women have made statements that the accuser had told them about the alleged attack in the past. So this isn't something that some woman just made up in the last minute to ruin some man's career. Again, people have known about this. The timing of it becoming public surely is a tactic, but it certainly wasn't Ms. Ford's. Can you imagine how miserable her life is going to be, maybe for years?

Finally, Seth Myers put it well, If the police come to your door and say they want to investigate you about the murder of Bob, and you pull out a long list of people you didn't kill, you're still going to be investigated about Bob's murder. The I in FBI does stand for investigate, let them do it. There certainly is precedent. Heck the White House Photographer has to undergo 2 FBI background checks...

[SciFi Chick]

Well, I stand corrected. I still think this reeks of politics, but I did not know how quickly the FBI acted in the case of Anita Hill. With that precedent, I agree that the FBI should investigate.

I also didn't know the stuff that Thumper mentioned about people already knowing about this.

Now, I have more context. Thank you.

Still don't think people who identify as Republican or Democrat are inherently bad, and I do think most of the career politicians up in D.C., whatever their stripe are. In case y'all are interested in what I think.

[SciFiFisher]

Well, I stand corrected. I still think this reeks of politics, but I did not know how quickly the FBI acted in the case of Anita Hill. With that precedent, I agree that the FBI should investigate.

I also didn't know the stuff that Thumper mentioned about people already knowing about this.

Now, I have more context. Thank you.

Still don't think people who identify as Republican or Democrat are inherently bad, and I do think most of the career politicians up in D.C., whatever their stripe are. In case y'all are interested in what I think.

Of course, it's politics too. But, that doesn't mean we should not be alarmed about the moral character of a man who is going to sit on the Supreme Court for DECADES and influence or drastically change the laws of this country.

I am glad Thumper mentioned the 60 plus women they magically pulled out of their... hats. It's pretty obvious the Republicans were aware of this skeleton in Kavanaugh's closet. Instead of that giving them pause about nominating him they chose to develop a defense. Makes you wonder why they want him so bad when there are about 5 other very conservative judges that most conservatives and even some liberals would be fine with.

[SciFi Chick]

Of course, it's politics too. But, that doesn't mean we should not be alarmed about the moral character of a man who is going to sit on the Supreme Court for DECADES and influence or drastically change the laws of this country.

I am glad Thumper mentioned the 60 plus women they magically pulled out of their... hats. It's pretty obvious the Republicans were aware of this skeleton in Kavanaugh's closet. Instead of that giving them pause about nominating him they chose to develop a defense. Makes you wonder why they want him so bad when there are about 5 other very conservative judges that most conservatives and even some liberals would be fine with.

I have no idea. I also have no idea why Feinstein waited so long to reveal the letter. Makes me wonder what's going on that they don't want us to pay any attention to.

But I've been doing a little research today, and I have a BIG problem with a woman who can't remember where or exactly when this assault supposedly happened. As someone who has been assaulted, I remember every detail and I would love not to.

I also think it's bizarre that her husband distinctly remembers her worrying, from the therapy session he learned about this alleged assault, back in 2012, that Kavanaugh might one day get nominated to the Supreme Court. That's oddly specific, don't you think?

But that said, I'm forced to get all of my information from news, and we all know how untrustworthy news is. Which is why I do agree 100% that the FBI should be handling this.

[Cyborg Girl]

But I've been doing a little research today, and I have a BIG problem with a woman who can't remember where or exactly when this assault supposedly happened. As someone who has been assaulted, I remember every detail and I would love not to.

Trauma can do weird shit to people's memories. It can also... not do weird shit. Varies depending on the victim's personality, age, circumstances, methods of abuse, etc.

I remembered most of the details around the older kid who molested me, but didn't contextualize it as actual sexual abuse until recently, or realize why certain types of sarcastic mannerisms would make me scared and upset... Because using non-obvious sarcasm to fuck with me was one of his ways of confusing my view of reality, and making me always unsure what he intended and where I stood with him. Emotional abuse, IOW. Part of why I didn't understand what had happened, was that his emotional games did much more damage than the times he groped me. This was over a period of at least a year. I remembered the important parts, and had trauma around all of it, but didn't contextualize why it was traumatic because I didn't have the tools - or, later, was scared what I might find if I looked at my own past with them.

I was maybe 9-10 at the time. If I were younger, my brain might instead of decontextualizing have set up a secondary personality around the events, or cut off parts of my personality day to day that remembered most strongly. This is one way people wind up with DID.

TL;DR brains are flexible and vary a lot, and what applied for your trauma doesn't apply for everyone's. If there were a formula, PTSD would be a lot easier to treat.

[SciFi Chick]

I'm well aware of that CG. I've spent a lot of years around counseling centers and as for sexual abuse - the people in my family who haven't gone through it are the ones in the minority.

That said - she's given specific and conflicting details and that's why I want an investigation.

I just still believe in innocent until proven guilty. I didn't want to believe the Cosby allegations. Well, they were true. I'm sad about that, but I'm not denying it.

I don't trust the timing of this allegation, but I don't necessarily hold her responsible for this disaster, I don't assume she's lying, and I certainly don't trust news media outlets that are rushing, as they always do, to get the story first and they'll do corrections later, which makes it really tough for those of us who aren't glued to the news all the time.

I don't know. Probably shouldn't even be analyzing what the truth might be until we have more information. My main point is the investigation does indeed need to happen, but boy am I going to be pissed off if it really is just more political shenanigans.

I am pleased that no one has called for him to withdraw, merely to be investigated. I am very displeased that some people on the right are calling her a whore, thus proving the complaint that women go through hell just for making an accusation, even now.

[SciFi Chick]

I'm not saying I don't want the FBI to investigate. I'm not saying that.

I'm bringing up a point, for the record, from a conservative, who said that the FBI investigated the Anita Hill case because Clarence Thomas was a federal employee at the time, as opposed to investigating something that may or may not have happened back in the eighties in a private home.

Just putting that out there.

[geonuc]

From a legal perspective, there is good reason for statutes of limitations on crimes*. It has to do with the presumption of innocence and the difficulty in investigating alleged crimes. It's too easy to drag someone through the mud based on alleged decades-old acts. In this age of partisan politics, my assumption is that any such allegations are politically motivated. See, for example, Al Franken. Understanding that we are not talking about a criminal investigation, the principle still applies.

* I don't know what the SoL for sexual assault is in the jurisdiction where Kavanaugh's alleged acts took place. I'm making a general point.

[SciFiFisher]

I am pleased that no one has called for him to withdraw, merely to be investigated. I am very displeased that some people on the right are calling her a whore, thus proving the complaint that women go through hell just for making an accusation, even now.

And the death threats. Yes, she and her family have received death threats. Because nothing says your guy is innocent like threatening to kill the star witness.

[SciFi Chick]

I am pleased that no one has called for him to withdraw, merely to be investigated. I am very displeased that some people on the right are calling her a whore, thus proving the complaint that women go through hell just for making an accusation, even now.

And the death threats. Yes, she and her family have received death threats. Because nothing says your guy is innocent like threatening to kill the star witness.

I'll need evidence for that. I don't believe ANYONE who merely claims they received death threats. Too many proven liars on that front.

[SciFiFisher]

I am pleased that no one has called for him to withdraw, merely to be investigated. I am very displeased that some people on the right are calling her a whore, thus proving the complaint that women go through hell just for making an accusation, even now.

And the death threats. Yes, she and her family have received death threats. Because nothing says your guy is innocent like threatening to kill the star witness.

I'll need evidence for that. I don't believe ANYONE who merely claims they received death threats. Too many proven liars on that front.

I am not sure what you mean by evidence? There are literally 20 news outlets who have reported it. They have also reported that the FBI is investigating the death threats.

I am not sure if you are aware of it or not but Ms Ford took a lie detector test in August and passed it with flying colors. She apparently is quite convinced that her allegation that Kavanaugh attempted to rape her is the truth. I have no reason to believe that she would lie about death threats.

Apparently, in your experience, it is very common for women to lie about rape and sexual assault and for people to lie about death threats. You and I apparently have different views on these topics.

[SciFi Chick]

Duke Lacrosse Case

U.Va. rape case

woman sentenced for false rape accusation

Another woman sentenced for false rape accusation

Woman falsely accuses date of rape because he won't drive her home.

Woman jailed for lying about soldier raping her

Woman finally jailed after sending three men to prison on false rape charges.

These are just a few. I could go on. Yes, I know what you're going to say next. Most women don't lie. Hey! Most people who get killed on the death penalty are guilty. It's the ones who aren't guilty that I'm worried about.

[SciFiFisher]

These are just a few. I could go on. Yes, I know what you're going to say next. Most women don't lie. Hey! Most people who get killed on the death penalty are guilty. It's the ones who aren't guilty that I'm worried about.

Actually, I have already said. Repeatedly. Which is why I said, in my last post, that you and I have very different views on this. I prefer mine over yours. You prefer yours over mine. And it is pretty apparent to me that you and I will just have to agree to disagree about how significant women lying about sexual assault, sexual harassment, and death threats is.

[SciFi Chick]

These are just a few. I could go on. Yes, I know what you're going to say next. Most women don't lie. Hey! Most people who get killed on the death penalty are guilty. It's the ones who aren't guilty that I'm worried about.

Actually, I have already said. Repeatedly. Which is why I said, in my last post, that you and I have very different views on this. I prefer mine over yours. You prefer yours over mine. And it is pretty apparent to me that you and I will just have to agree to disagree about how significant women lying about sexual assault, sexual harassment, and death threats is.

That's fine. I'm a bigger fan of innocent until proven guilty than you are. I can live with that.

I think what we can agree on is throwing them under the bus once we know they're guilty. But we really must know beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'd also like to point out that personal vs. public is very different. I would never ask a woman to prove something she shared with me on a personal level. I do just believe women or men when they're sharing something so painful with me. It's the public sphere I'm having difficulty with. This whole black and white attitude of the metoo movement is very, very scary to me.

[Rommie]

Wow. So extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but this made me sick to my stomach just to read- https://twitter.com/michaelavenatti/sta ... 60576?s=21

Like, I legit hope it’s not true because that would just be so awful for so many. Like not even thinking about the politics. But I suspect Avenatti is a savvy enough lawyer to not publicly say such things if there isn’t evidence behind it- I guess that’ll come out soon enough.

(Also, another woman with an accusation dating to college. It's weird how there is legit a schedule now for when more accusations come out, it takes about a week I’ve noticed.)