Wow umm I sure hope this is a coincidence

[Cyborg Girl]

"Federal agency says it lost track of 1,488 migrant children"

https://apnews.com/aad956b7281f4057aaac1ef4b5732f12

This is the second time in a couple of months that number has come up in federal government stuff.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

I realize if you haven't read a bunch about neo-Nazis this all sounds quite insane, but those kinds of movements in general pretend to be secret societies even when they're fully out in the open - they have hand signals, code words, all kinds of stuff like that. Partly for purposes like this, to let their cronies on the street know when they've successfully infiltrated some organization.

You have to wonder what exactly happened to those people they "lost track of".

[SciFi Chick]

Next, you'll start babbling about 11:11 being significant.

The Nazi thing is soooo not a thing. People have lost their damn minds. Please let us get back to civil disagreements where we don't assume the person we disagree with is evil. Come on!

Look at it this way. What message is conveyed by using that number to describe missing children?

[Rommie]

Plus "Federal agency says it lost track of 1,488 migrant children" is ten words.

I think they can be plenty evil without having to do random numbers as a code. Of all the numbers associated, some are going to be coincidentally this or that way, so one on its own isn't that big a deal IMO. Plus honestly if we're making up random numbers for the number of missing children, 1,488 is embarrassing for them and I don't know why they wouldn't choose a lower one.

You have to wonder what exactly happened to those people they "lost track of".

I'm pretty sure a large faction of them buggered off and ran away. That's what I'd do if I was a teenager. (To be clear though, not all- I don't want to make it sound like I'm condoning this shit.) But I'm wondering what you mean by this statement exactly, CG? Do you think there are mass graves of migrant children or something? Because that's the implication I'm reading, and that seems pretty radical for a bunch of goons who could just release people in Central American war zones to be killed by drug cartels instead. (As I said, not condoning shit, just being pragmatic.)

[SciFi Chick]

I'm pretty sure a large faction of them buggered off and ran away. That's what I'd do if I was a teenager. (To be clear though, not all- I don't want to make it sound like I'm condoning this shit.) But I'm wondering what you mean by this statement exactly, CG? Do you think there are mass graves of migrant children or something? Because that's the implication I'm reading, and that seems pretty radical for a bunch of goons who could just release people in Central American war zones to be killed by drug cartels instead. (As I said, not condoning shit, just being pragmatic.)

I think CG is concerned about the human trafficking that tends to be associated with illegal aliens. Children are victims of that a lot. I do think the majority of them did, as you say, run off or something. I know last time this happened, ICE said they don't keep track of children after they are out of their custody, so wording might be an issue. Did they lose track, or did they just not keep track?

No. I'm not condoning it either, but I tend to think it's more a bureaucracy government fuckup more than anything nefarious.

[Cyborg Girl]

Yeah Rommie got it, I was concerned about people being forced to dig their own graves, shot, and buried somewhere out in the boondocks. Though honestly she's probably right about the pragmatism part

Look, I know y'all think I'm nuts, but this is an administration that literally got into office on an ethnic cleansing ticket. Deliberately separating children from their parents, and adopting them out or keeping them imprisoned, already fits the UN definition of genocide.

@SFC

No, it is a thing.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/201 ... daho-troll

The number used in the calls to Charlottesville also ends in the digits “1488,” a significant number in the neo-Nazi culture. The “14” refers to white supremacist David Lane’s directive, “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” The “88” is an homage to the leader of Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler. “H” is the eight letter of the alphabet and the “88” stands for “HH” or “heil Hitler.”

This is literally at thing they do. It says to other Nazis, "see we're here and cool and getting stuff we want done". And it says to Jews, Black people, and anyone else they hate, "Be afraid, we're coming for you." Most white people not knowing this is a feature, not a bug.

(And no it's not a conspiracy. People just don't look into things that don't concern them directly.)

@Rommie

It's embarrassing to them *in our eyes* - the eyes of liberals or folks on the left. But that is not who this administration talks to. They talk to their supporters, who tend to be proudly and openly racist, and want policies that deliberately harm certain groups.

And all, I'm not saying people are evil for disagreeing with *me*. I'm saying people are evil for supporting a guy who literally espouses ethnic cleansing. I'm saying people are evil for supporting sadistic policies like child separation. I'm saying people are evil for believing that other human beings deserve to suffer for being who they are, and acting on it politically. POLITICS HURTS HUMAN BEINGS. Civility is for engaging with people who respect others' existence. I will not be civil with those who want me and my loved ones dead.

[SciFi Chick]

Yup. I think you're nuts. I've been exactly where you are, back when I was a Christian. I saw conspiracies everywhere and I just knew life as we know it was coming to an end. Never happened. The more you scream and stamp your feet, the more you seem nuts.

Trump most certainly did NOT get elected on a ticket of ethnic cleansing.

There is most certainly NO genocide going on in this country.

Nazis are not hiding under the bed waiting to take over the country.

Hardly any of Trump's supporters are proudly and openly racist. Probably a lot of closet racists, but not proudly and openly.

And a lot of us do look into things that don't affect us directly. It's why I already knew the symbolism of 1488, but I maintain that is NOT what is going on here.

I'll tell you what does exist - trolls. Lots and lots of trolls that think it's hilarious to yank your chain on the Internet. Learn to ignore them.

Seriously - you've gone way too far down the rabbit hole. I've been there. Even after I got out of religion. The whole reason I discovered Bad Astronomy was because I wandered onto some site of this nut job who was convinced Galileo was going to ignite Jupiter and we would have a twin star system. I wouldn't even take that kind of nonsense seriously for five seconds now.

Quit living in a world of confirmation bias. Challenge your own beliefs. Try to prove yourself wrong not right. Revisit your lessons on critical thinking. Try to stop being addicted to cortisol (the chemical released when we are afraid or stressed).

The world is a far less scary place than it's ever been. Yes, there is loads of work to be done, but we're getting it done. Trump is not the big bad. We'll get through it and hopefully someone with a far better skill set will take the office in 2024. Sorry to say, but I'm pretty sure he's going to get re-elected if things stay as they are now.

[Cyborg Girl]

Trump most certainly did NOT get elected on a ticket of ethnic cleansing.

There is most certainly NO genocide going on in this country.

http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.html

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

It is in the literal fucking definition. Stop being deliberately fucking obtuse. Stop acting like denialism is skepticism.

I'll tell you what does exist - trolls. Lots and lots of trolls that think it's hilarious to yank your chain on the Internet. Learn to ignore them.

Yes, trolls that have been proven over and over again to actually be associated with actual far-right movements in actual real life. Which data you keep ignoring and dismissing because it doesn't fit your worldview.

[SciFi Chick]

It is in the literal fucking definition. Stop being deliberately fucking obtuse. Stop acting like denialism is skepticism.

Damn. Perfect example of assuming ill intent from someone who disagrees with you. I'm actually using real skepticism. I'm not being deliberately obtuse. How DARE you judge me in this fashion. I've been on this site for over a decade. You know good and goddamn well that I am NEVER deliberately obtuse unless making a joke. You've got a helluva lot of nerve making extreme claims like the ones you just did and calling me obtuse. It's like I'm talking with someone from godlikeproductions.

As for your contention that it's "in the literal fucking definition." Bullshit. You have to prove intent. Do you know NOTHING about proving a case? Are you so far gone that just making stuff up works for you? You have to prove these things are being done strictly because of race and/or ethnicity. And you have to prove that it's Trump requiring this.

This stuff went on under the Obama administration as well. Maybe not as much, but it happened a lot. You gonna tell me he was committing genocide? Give me a fucking break.

[Cyborg Girl]

BTW

Trump is not the big bad.

No, he's just the logical end result of what the Republican party has turned into. (And, honestly, of the Democrats' chronic inability to show any spine on the federal level.) And a figurehead for a totalitarian movement.

You're like, "Oh it's not so bad, this is pretty normal, nothing bad is going to happen..."

No. It's already bad. We had the federal government literally and deliberately using children as hostages, what in the fuck more evidence do you want that these guys are dangerous?

[SciFi Chick]

BTW

Trump is not the big bad.

No, he's just the logical end result of what the Republican party has turned into. (And, honestly, of the Democrats' chronic inability to show any spine on the federal level.) And a figurehead for a totalitarian movement.

You're like, "Oh it's not so bad, this is pretty normal, nothing bad is going to happen..."

No. It's already bad. We had the federal government literally and deliberately using children as hostages, what in the fuck more evidence do you want that these guys are dangerous?

What more evidence do I want? How about any? Something other than your panicky hyperbole for starters.

[Cyborg Girl]

Yes, the panicky hyperbole that has been all over the news the last few months and that the UN told the Trump administration to cease.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... om-parents

They were billing this as a deterrent. What else do you want me to call it? I can think of a number of terms - kidnapping, imprisonment of minors, using children's pain as a weapon, using their parents' pain as a weapon, atrocities, crimes against humanity - and those would all be accurate, but I don't think any of them would be acceptably calm and civil for you, am I right?

[SciFi Chick]

I'm going to read this, but before I do, let's get something straight - I want you to be calm and civil with me. it's hard to carry on a conversation when my slightest disagreement causes you to throw a tantrum, start cursing and call me a liar. Just sayin'. Most people wouldn't even be talking with you after that performance, but I'm hard headed.

[SciFi Chick]

Yes, the panicky hyperbole that has been all over the news the last few months and that the UN told the Trump administration to cease.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... om-parents

They were billing this as a deterrent. What else do you want me to call it? I can think of a number of terms - kidnapping, imprisonment of minors, using children's pain as a weapon, using their parents' pain as a weapon, atrocities, crimes against humanity - and those would all be accurate, but I don't think any of them would be acceptably calm and civil for you, am I right?

Question, do you think we should let everyone who shows up at our border in?

Do you think we should have open borders?

[Sigma_Orionis]

I usually try to stay away from this topic. I don't favor any kind of illegal immigration. And I certainly don't think open borders is a good idea. (And please, remember where I currently live).

HOWEVER, I think this might be a tad too far.

Immigrants may be denied green cards if they’ve received benefits

[SciFi Chick]

I usually try to stay away from this topic. I don't favor any kind of illegal immigration. And I certainly don't think open borders is a good idea. (And please, remember where I currently live).

HOWEVER, I think this might be a tad too far.

Immigrants may be denied green cards if they’ve received benefits

There's a lot that's more than a tad too far, but I like to know the starting goalposts when I debate this topic.

BTW, apparently Motorola is Nazi, 'cause they have this common component called the Mc1488.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I usually try to stay away from this topic. I don't favor any kind of illegal immigration. And I certainly don't think open borders is a good idea. (And please, remember where I currently live).

HOWEVER, I think this might be a tad too far.

Immigrants may be denied green cards if they’ve received benefits

There's a lot that's more than a tad too far, but I like to know the starting goalposts when I debate this topic.

BTW, apparently Motorola is Nazi, 'cause they have this common component called the Mc1488.

Well, if we're talking just illegal immigration. Not all that relevant. However, if the topic is your current administration's stance on foreigners, it might be relevant.

[SciFiFisher]

I usually try to stay away from this topic. I don't favor any kind of illegal immigration. And I certainly don't think open borders is a good idea. (And please, remember where I currently live).

HOWEVER, I think this might be a tad too far.

Immigrants may be denied green cards if they’ve received benefits

It's essentially saying "if you are going to be a drain on society then we don't want you". And they don't even bother to hide it with this proposed legislation. It's in line with the theme they have adopted by refusing asylum to people fleeing rape, gang violence, and domestic violence. What makes this administration that much more heinous is they openly sell green cards/VISA's to rich investors who are willing to buy Trump properties.

And the fact that they are targeting legal immigrants is a pretty strong indicator of where they stand on immigration. Send us your poor? Nope! Send us your tired? Nope! Keep those nasty wretched masses to yourself!

[Sigma_Orionis]

I usually try to stay away from this topic. I don't favor any kind of illegal immigration. And I certainly don't think open borders is a good idea. (And please, remember where I currently live).

HOWEVER, I think this might be a tad too far.

Immigrants may be denied green cards if they’ve received benefits

It's essentially saying "if you are going to be a drain on society then we don't want you". And they don't even bother to hide it with this proposed legislation. It's in line with the theme they have adopted by refusing asylum to people fleeing rape, gang violence, and domestic violence. What makes this administration that much more heinous is they openly sell green cards/VISA's to rich investors who are willing to buy Trump properties.

And the fact that they are targeting legal immigrants is a pretty strong indicator of where they stand on immigration. Send us your poor? Nope! Send us your tired? Nope! Keep those nasty wretched masses to yourself!

Ah yes, the EB-5 Investor visa. I've seen that "Cash for a Visa" scheme from Developers living in Miami, targeting people with money 'round here (probably Chavistas, rich people from the opposition got theirs long ago). What makes it smell funny is:

A) The USUAL amount required for investment is 1 Million US$. It's US$ 500,000 in High Unemployment or Rural Areas. According to Reuters, the development in question is a Luxury Apartment Complex in Jersey City, NJ. Dunno if that city qualifies as a "High Unemployment" Area. It's certainly NOT a "Rural Area". (as per the definition set by USCIS)

B) There's a annual cap of 10000 on the number of people that can be accepted for that visa

C) A company with ties to Kushner pushing that, certainly smells funny if only by association. Considering that, apparently, he STILL has a stake in it.

D) The presentation explicitly claims that Donald J. Trump is a "key decider" in the process.


It does remind me from that scene from "The PeaceMaker":

Aleksandr Kodoroff: Fuckin' refugees. Azerbaijani, Georgians, Kazakhstani...

Vlado Mirich: Well, don't curse them.

Aleksandr Kodoroff: I don't care whose bitch gave birth to them. Muslim, Serb. I don't hate them for who they are, I hate them because they are poor.

[SciFi Chick]

Y'all realize that most countries give you a visa for cash and it's codified in law. It's a handy way of knowing if you'll contribute to the country. In the U.S. and Australia, the amount is $100,000.00 and it's certainly not new or exclusive to the Trump administration.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Y'all realize that most countries give you a visa for cash and it's codified in law. It's a handy way of knowing if you'll contribute to the country. In the U.S. and Australia, the amount is $100,000.00 and it's certainly not new or exclusive to the Trump administration.

Nope, that's not the problem. The EB-5 visa program has existed for at least 20 years. (IIRC back in the late 90s, Early 2000s, the investment amount was US$ 100,000.00). That urban development companies use the EB-5 program to get investors is not particularly shady. However, the fact that such a development company, that happens to be tied to Trump's son in law is pushing it, smells funny. The fact that they are flouting their connections to Trump's family AND that they're implying that Trump has final say on which actual individuals get the visa, smells like rotten fish.

[SciFi Chick]

Okay - I read Sigma's link, and I am very, very confused. My husband has a green card, and he is not entitled to any assistance for another three years. We had to sign an affidavit saying we'd (Mom and I) would support him if he couldn't support himself. So how are immigrants of any stripe, especially before they have green cards, getting SNAP benefits?

[Sigma_Orionis]

Okay - I read Sigma's link, and I am very, very confused. My husband has a green card, and he is not entitled to any assistance for another three years. We had to sign an affidavit saying we'd (Mom and I) would support him if he couldn't support himself. So how are immigrants of any stripe, especially before they have green cards, getting SNAP benefits?

Apparently it's targeting people who are in process of getting a green card and, say, use some sort of public assistance for their kids (the piece I just found specifically mentions an US Federal Program called WIC that provides nutritional assistance to pregnant women and children)

I found a piece on Snopes.com that tries to clarify it

On a grimly amusing side note: Now that you mention that Zee is not eligible for Welfare benefits yet. Back in 2017 Mr. "MAGA" said in a speech that he would issue a law that forbid legal immigrants from getting benefits for 5 years after their arrival. THAT law was issued by the Clinton Administration in 1996. What is both appalling and pathetic is the reception he got from that speech. I think that way too many people in your country (and not necessarily Trump supporters) are convinced that anyone can just show up in your border and is immediately granted legal immigrant status.

[SciFi Chick]

On a grimly amusing side note: Now that you mention that Zee is not eligible for Welfare benefits yet. Back in 2017 Mr. "MAGA" said in a speech that he would issue a law that forbid legal immigrants from getting benefits for 5 years after their arrival. THAT law was issued by the Clinton Administration in 1996. What is both appalling and pathetic is the reception he got from that speech. I think that way too many people in your country (and not necessarily Trump supporters) are convinced that anyone can just show up in your border and is immediately granted legal immigrant status.

I remember that since Z and I both laughed hysterically at the time since there was already that 10 year law.

[SciFiFisher]

yes, one of the common stereotypes that people have is illegal immigrants can access virtually all of the public assistance programs. If they are here illegally about the only program they can access legally is emergency medical assistance. And of course, if you throw in the misperceptions about all immigrants and the perceived "unfair advantage" they have it becomes very easy to convince a certain segment of the population to hate all immigrants.

[SciFiFisher]

Y'all realize that most countries give you a visa for cash and it's codified in law. It's a handy way of knowing if you'll contribute to the country. In the U.S. and Australia, the amount is $100,000.00 and it's certainly not new or exclusive to the Trump administration.

Nope, that's not the problem. The EB-5 visa program has existed for at least 20 years. (IIRC back in the late 90s, Early 2000s, the investment amount was US$ 100,000.00). That urban development companies use the EB-5 program to get investors is not particularly shady. However, the fact that such a development company, that happens to be tied to Trump's son in law is pushing it, smells funny. The fact that they are flouting their connections to Trump's family AND that they're implying that Trump has final say on which actual individuals get the visa, smells like rotten fish.

It's also, probably, a violation of the emollients clause. Which essentially says you are not allowed to use public office to enrich yourself, your family, or your business interests.

I have no problem with encouraging people of means to come to the U.S. and creating jobs. But, I have my doubts that buying a million dollar condo creates that many jobs. And I especially object to my government officials acting like low brow criminals. I much prefer the ones who are discrete and pretend to have ethics and stuff like that.