Christine Fair

[SciFiFisher]

See, I tend to think that tug of war is necessary. It's not always the best thing to jump into the new new thing, and it's definitely not always a good idea to reject it. The sexual revolution has not done us any favors, as an example.

I really thought it did. For example, it took until 1995 before the last state finally made it a crime to rape your wife. And made it possible for her to actually file charges against her husband. I see that as a direct result of the "sexual revolution". Without acknowledging that women had the right to determine their own sexuality and the right to say no they may have not had the right to say no to sex within the marriage for a lot longer. As it was they had the right to vote a lot longer than they had the right to say no.

Well, I have no way of knowing how to verify your assessment of the sexual revolution, but just today, I read that STDs have increased by 200,000 in the last year. Then again, maybe that has nothing to do with the sexual revolution either.

I think it's absolutely awesome that women have agency in their marriages and dating life now, but I'm concerned that, in general, women tend to be more emotional, and lots of sex outside of marriage seems to affect them adversely.

Believe me, I'm a big scifi fan. Thus, the name. And I really want it to be that we all have sex whenever we want to with or without emotional attachment and it's a bit like picking what restaurant we want to go to, but that seems to be having an adverse affect on society.

Then again, it's hard to narrow it all down. Dammit - I need to go back to school and get that degree in sociology. Clearly, I'm obsessed with it.

Frankly, I wish I could disagree with you that free unfettered sex was bad. In my own limited experiences I came to the conclusion that intimacy without well... intimacy, bonding, and some form of connection besides just sex generally didn't work out well.

I suspect that humans are not "wired" to have sex without emotion. Especially without emotional attachment. I have however, known a few people over the years that really seemed to be that free and unfettered and they seemed to have their heads screwed on tight enough in general. For the most part what I recall is they eventually settled on one partner and entered into monogamous relationships for the most part after a few years.

The challenge is that not everyone who claims to be that causal about it is telling the truth. Getting attached seems to be a natural by product of the release of oxytocin and other naturally occurring hormones and chemical cocktails the body releases when it has sex.

But, a lot of the change in society that occurred when it came to "personhood" was a result of the sexual and cultural revolutions that occurred between approximately 1945 and today.

[SciFiFisher]

and BTW if you really are fascinated about sociology then you will enjoy learning that sociologists like to study things like the cultural norms of elevator behavior.

[SciFi Chick]

I confess I've been watching some conservative views on this subject, and I'm not entirely sure that society is benefiting from this cultural revolution. Sometimes, change that happens to quickly hurts a society.

And I'm pretty convinced there was plenty of "personhood" before this, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Let's get explicit. Do you really think hippies smoking pot and fucking in a park made it to where women and people of color have more agency? Because I am seriously not convinced about that.

[Rommie]

I confess I've been watching some conservative views on this subject, and I'm not entirely sure that society is benefiting from this cultural revolution. Sometimes, change that happens to quickly hurts a society.

And I'm pretty convinced there was plenty of "personhood" before this, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Let's get explicit. Do you really think hippies smoking pot and fucking in a park made it to where women and people of color have more agency? Because I am seriously not convinced about that.

I think it is impossible to untangle from the fact that birth control was available for the first time in that coincident period, and that autonomy for the first time in history for women is what triggered that revolution. It’s also such a radical change that it doesn’t surprise me that it has taken years for society to adjust. But because I think birth control is so intertwined with the sexual revolution, I am going to vehemently disagree that it did not do us any favors.

[SciFi Chick]

I confess I've been watching some conservative views on this subject, and I'm not entirely sure that society is benefiting from this cultural revolution. Sometimes, change that happens to quickly hurts a society.

And I'm pretty convinced there was plenty of "personhood" before this, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Let's get explicit. Do you really think hippies smoking pot and fucking in a park made it to where women and people of color have more agency? Because I am seriously not convinced about that.

I think it is impossible to untangle from the fact that birth control was available for the first time in that coincident period, and that autonomy for the first time in history for women is what triggered that revolution. It’s also such a radical change that it doesn’t surprise me that it has taken years for society to adjust. But because I think birth control is so intertwined with the sexual revolution, I am going to vehemently disagree that it did not do us any favors.

You can vehemently disagree, but I'm looking at the birth rates go down in our society while they go up in societies that have vastly different values - like, for example, not appreciating women, and that's one of the things that concerns me. The old law of unintended consequences. It might be great for you, but birth control wrecked me and wrecks lots of women. It's not a healthy thing. I've done the research. So we might be having a party for a generation or two and then be right back to the dark ages.

[Thumper]

Can you elaborate on how condoms and vasectomies have wrecked women?

[SciFi Chick]

Can you elaborate on how condoms and vasectomies have wrecked women?

Obviously, I was speaking of female birth control.

But that doesn't change my point about birth rates going down to an alarming degree.

[Thumper]

Yeah, I'm also confused about what's wrong with birth rates going down.

[SciFi Chick]

Yeah, I'm also confused about what's wrong with birth rates going down.

It has to do with societal values like humanism, freedom, equality. Societies with major human rights issues are overpopulating and western societies are losing population. We aren't producing enough people to keep things going. That's the concern anyway. I, personally, don't like the way women and gay people are treated in most Muslim countries as an example.

[Thumper]

Everything I look at shows the population of the United States continuing to grow. It sounds like you're saying two things, one you'd like less brown people breeding and more white people breeding. I know that can't possibly be what you're saying but that's the way I read your post. Two, there are so few people we can't keep things going? We're running out of drinkable water, the ability to sustain-ably provide adequate food for the current population let alone a constant increase, and our processes are polluting the air so much that we are in danger of runaway climate change. But we need more people or we'll falter?

[Rommie]

I confess I've been watching some conservative views on this subject, and I'm not entirely sure that society is benefiting from this cultural revolution. Sometimes, change that happens to quickly hurts a society.

And I'm pretty convinced there was plenty of "personhood" before this, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Let's get explicit. Do you really think hippies smoking pot and fucking in a park made it to where women and people of color have more agency? Because I am seriously not convinced about that.

I think it is impossible to untangle from the fact that birth control was available for the first time in that coincident period, and that autonomy for the first time in history for women is what triggered that revolution. It’s also such a radical change that it doesn’t surprise me that it has taken years for society to adjust. But because I think birth control is so intertwined with the sexual revolution, I am going to vehemently disagree that it did not do us any favors.

You can vehemently disagree, but I'm looking at the birth rates go down in our society while they go up in societies that have vastly different values - like, for example, not appreciating women, and that's one of the things that concerns me. The old law of unintended consequences. It might be great for you, but birth control wrecked me and wrecks lots of women. It's not a healthy thing. I've done the research. So we might be having a party for a generation or two and then be right back to the dark ages.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in saying you're against other countries where women aren't respected by controlling women in ours by being against access to birth control? Particularly as someone who, IRC, chose not to have children?

I know birth control can suck, but you know what sucks more? Pregnancy followed by raising a child for 18 years you don't want. Having a child isn't exactly a biological walk in the park either- people fucking die doing it, and it's definitely not a walk in the park even when it's going well. I will also btw reserve judgement from your saying that "it's not a healthy thing" in comparison to pregnancy and having children until you post sources, because there's a ton of propaganda out there claiming otherwise so can't trust that blanket statement.

By the way, I didn't say this last night, but in defense of casual sex: I have done it several times earlier in my life during periods when I was not in a relationship, with over a dozen partners if I had to estimate. Obviously it wasn't as good as sex when you're in a relationship with someone, but did the trick for what I wanted at the time, and I obviously liked it or else I would have stopped doing it. Condoms are actually really fucking good at what they're supposed to do despite what propaganda says otherwise, and I never had an STD per tests I did once getting into a relationship. So while it sucks that others did not have that experience, I don't see why I would have to go through life sexually repressed for years just because others had that. It sure fucking beats my friends who grew up in conservative backgrounds with the "purity" movement who literally have panic attacks when finally allowed to have sex with their husbands.

[SciFi Chick]

Everything I look at shows the population of the United States continuing to grow. It sounds like you're saying two things, one you'd like less brown people breeding and more white people breeding. I know that can't possibly be what you're saying but that's the way I read your post. Two, there are so few people we can't keep things going? We're running out of drinkable water, the ability to sustain-ably provide adequate food for the current population let alone a constant increase, and our processes are polluting the air so much that we are in danger of runaway climate change. But we need more people or we'll falter?

Wow. I just reread my post, and oddly, there was no mention of skin color. Does the concept of western society automatically mean white to you? Do the values I specifically mentioned of humanism, freedom and equality scream white to you? Does the fact that I don't like gay people being thrown off of buildings and women not being allowed to drive or dress the way they would like to mean I hate brown people?

You're going to have to clear up how you got racism out of my post, because I am honestly shocked that we've suddenly gone in this direction.

Would I like to see less Communists reproducing? Damn right I would. Would I like to see oppressive societies reproduce less? Damn right I would.

But when I said culture I meant it, and last time I checked, the west has plenty of brown and black people, so I am really confused by what you're talking about.

And by the way, I was talking about birth rates, not the population. Our population is currently going up through immigration, which I'm fine with as long as people embrace the way of life in the country they immigrate to. You're free to disagree, but I don't understand why I'm being attacked for having a differing opinion.

[SciFi Chick]

Do you not see the hypocrisy in saying you're against other countries where women aren't respected by controlling women in ours by being against access to birth control? Particularly as someone who, IRC, chose not to have children?

Wow. Way to read things into my post that just aren't there. Since you made it personal, I am not a person of privilege. I have never had the financial stability to have children, and I'm also infertile. I tend to deflect from the sadness this causes me by making it seem like I made that decision. But thanks for assuming I'm a hypocrite.

Secondly, where did I say or even imply that women shouldn't have access to birth control? I had major, major issues with birth control that took me years to recover from. I thought maybe it was the type of birth control I was using, so I researched it hoping to find another kind. This is before I realized I was infertile. All of them have horrible side effects. Horrible. I know more than one woman, personally who suffers from them.

You clearly aren't having any issues with it. Good for you! I'm happy for you. I'm happy that you are dancing through life with great health and all the choices laid out before you.

I wasn't suggesting that we take birth control away from women. I was suggesting that it might not be the healthiest choice from a statistical standpoint.

I know birth control can suck, but you know what sucks more? Pregnancy followed by raising a child for 18 years you don't want. Having a child isn't exactly a biological walk in the park either- people fucking die doing it, and it's definitely not a walk in the park even when it's going well. I will also btw reserve judgement from your saying that "it's not a healthy thing" in comparison to pregnancy and having children until you post sources, because there's a ton of propaganda out there claiming otherwise so can't trust that blanket statement.[/quote[

Bolding mine. Because that's the only part that's relevant. As for sources - look up any birth control and read the potential side effects. That's all I was referring to.

By the way, I didn't say this last night, but in defense of casual sex: I have done it several times earlier in my life during periods when I was not in a relationship, with over a dozen partners if I had to estimate. Obviously it wasn't as good as sex when you're in a relationship with someone, but did the trick for what I wanted at the time, and I obviously liked it or else I would have stopped doing it. Condoms are actually really fucking good at what they're supposed to do despite what propaganda says otherwise, and I never had an STD per tests I did once getting into a relationship. So while it sucks that others did not have that experience, I don't see why I would have to go through life sexually repressed for years just because others had that. It sure fucking beats my friends who grew up in conservative backgrounds with the "purity" movement who literally have panic attacks when finally allowed to have sex with their husbands.

Again, I never said casual sex should be eliminated. I said that I've found that it affects some women adversely, and perhaps they shouldn't be pushed into it in just the same way they shouldn't be forced not to have sex.

I was on here trying to discuss what might make our society better, and now I've been accused of being racist and wanting to take away rights from women. Is it because I used the word conservative in a post?

I reread my posts. So sorry I picked any example of how any conservative could ever be right about anything. Clearly, all Republicans are worse than ISIS.

[Thumper]

Yeah, I'm also confused about what's wrong with birth rates going down.

It has to do with societal values like humanism, freedom, equality. Societies with major human rights issues are overpopulating and western societies are losing population. We aren't producing enough people to keep things going. That's the concern anyway. I, personally, don't like the way women and gay people are treated in most Muslim countries as an example.

So you said "societies with major human rights issues are overpopulating." Which societies are you referring to? Name a few. Then, "western societies are losing population." That's inaccurate, so you walked back population increase or decrease to birth rates. I think they're related but whatever. I admitted that you couldn't possibly be saying that brown societies should reproduce less and was looking for clarification. You chose to lash out like you usually do saying you're being attacked yada yada, boo hoo. You could have just rephrased your answer and we could talk about where I don't understand at all about some of the things you're saying. And I still don't understand the concept that we do not have enough people. And finally, of course the US gains population from immigration, it always had. At some points in our history the population was almost entirely the result of immigration.

I'm reading some things right now that are talking about how much the population increase in the US is due to "immigrants and the descendants of immigrants". That confuses me. I'm the descendant of immigrants. So are you, so is virtually ever US citizen alive today, right? If an immigrant comes to America and has children are they immigrants? Are their grandkids? Great grandkids?

You throw so much stuff out there and then jump on people when they disagree with or misunderstand one thing. Then the discussion gets lost in the "SciFi vs The World" bus and I get tired of it. It's almost as if you enjoy deliberately baiting people into an argument. If that's the case, enjoy. If not I'm sorry I offend you every time I comment on your posts. It's not my intent.

[Rommie]

I apologize for the personal thing. But, because you don't seem to understand why we are all confused, your first response to my statement about birth control was "You can vehemently disagree, but I'm looking at the birth rates go down in our society while they go up in societies that have vastly different values - like, for example, not appreciating women, and that's one of the things that concerns me." This implies that you think the two are related, and that your issue with birth control is primarily vested in the fact that woman now have fewer children. From which the obvious conclusion is women should be having more children in the Western world. And, in a discussion on birth control where this is the first point that is raised, it implies that woman should not be making the choice they are with regards to controlling the births they endure. Which, in a discussion where I began with the premise that I disagree that the sexual revolution was bad because IMO it is so linked to the availability of birth control, indicates you are against said availability.

Like, at best, this whole line just put us on a giant red herring, because if your primary issue with birth control is because it can suck for some women to take it, and that has nothing to do with your argument. Why did you put it front and center then?

Point is, I don't see why you would raise the birth rate issue in the context of this discussion here unless you were against birth control, because that is certainly the implication based on the way your narrative is structured. Same with the casual sex thing. And because at some point this whole discussion began with your not understanding why we keep not understanding your views, I am writing all this out in hopes of clarifying how you are coming across when you write these things (to me, at least).

[SciFi Chick]

This is going to sound like I'm taking ball and bat and going home. But I'm really not. I am leaving for awhile.

I have no animosity as I leave, but it's very clear to me that I cannot communicate effectively with pretty much anyone on FWIS unless we're talking about fiction.

I seem to be stirring everyone up. I literally cannot see how Thumper and Rommie made the connections they did from my posts. Rommie has explained how she got to that place, but I still have trouble seeing it. geonuc is upset because I used the words "harp on" in another thread.

It seems like I'm upsetting everyone and I really don't want to be the direct cause of everyone getting fed up and leaving FWIS because the resident bitch is too hard to get along with.

So I'm taking a break and I'll be trying to find another way to get better at communication, because my efforts over the last year have been a huge fail.

I love y'all. FWIS has been an important part of my life over the last decade, and yet I still manage to frustrate and piss people off and I get my feelings hurt a lot as well. Apparently that means I'm SFC against the world. Boo hoo.

If a person doesn't fit into a group no matter how hard they try, it's time to leave that group for one they do fit into. So that is what I'll do.

[Loresinger]

Well another glorious day at FWIS - both SFC and Cyborg Girl are gone

FUCK

We do have a firefight area where people could let loose (knowing it was going to be HOT)...

Watching this happen it seems to reflect how stretched the american society has become in terms of a variety of views and how difficult it is to express those so others HEAR (figuratively) what you mean ... particularly on the Net.

In a Country where we are supposed to have one language we really have many proverbial ones. Each one uses words, phrases and ideas that SOMEONE is going to misunderstand, someone will dismiss, someone else will fight tooth and nail against it and not even really know why. Some will research and return with intel, some won't even notice the conversation. Until you know what language someone speaks and how to understand it, things like this go on, and on, and on.

you can now return to your abnormal programming

[geonuc]

geonuc is upset because I used the words "harp on" in another thread.

I wasn't upset. I was suggesting that the term might be upsetting to others. I probably should have said so in a PM.

[Loresinger]

I know that geo. This isn't the first time FWIS imploded a bit. Sometimes everyone needs to breathe. I hope they return when stress levels are down a bit.

[squ1d]

Baffling.