Boeing

[geonuc]

As I understood it, Paris was the closest location that had a lab capable of working on the recorders and recovering data. But I wouldn't rule out a possible slight to the US. I just don't have any info in that regard.

Yeah, me neither. But since it was a US-manufactured plane, you'd think the NTSB would be the logical choice. Then again, I suppose Boeing is fully capable of getting folks to Paris to support the investigation.

[Thumper]

And I heard troubling blather on the news yesterday. Ethiopia held a press conference expounding that their pilots performed every step exactly as Boeing had laid out and they were still unable to recover the plane. I don't know how they know this, because all that information is in France working on being extracted. As that statement came out, there were leaks stating that wasn't the case: the pilots were confused and did not perform the correct steps to recover the aircraft. Can we just wait for some thorough investigation and look at the facts.

Then I caught the tail end of an interview with Ralph Nader, boy did that suck. Apparently his grand niece died in the Ethiopian crash. Now he's on a rampage to take down Boeing. Listening to him spew out "facts," I was unaware that he had degrees in aeronautical engineering and jet propulsion.

The only way to even slightly honor the people that died in these tragedies is to accurately discover all the facts, determine the cause of the crashes and all mitigating factors, and take logical steps to make sure this type of crash never happens again. The NTSB is very, very good at that.

[Thumper]

NPR Interview with Nader

[geonuc]

And I heard troubling blather on the news yesterday. Ethiopia held a press conference expounding that their pilots performed every step exactly as Boeing had laid out and they were still unable to recover the plane. I don't know how they know this, because all that information is in France working on being extracted. As that statement came out, there were leaks stating that wasn't the case: the pilots were confused and did not perform the correct steps to recover the aircraft. Can we just wait for some thorough investigation and look at the facts.

Then I caught the tail end of an interview with Ralph Nader, boy did that suck. Apparently his grand niece died in the Ethiopian crash. Now he's on a rampage to take down Boeing. Listening to him spew out "facts," I was unaware that he had degrees in aeronautical engineering and jet propulsion.

The only way to even slightly honor the people that died in these tragedies is to accurately discover all the facts, determine the cause of the crashes and all mitigating factors, and take logical steps to make sure this type of crash never happens again. The NTSB is very, very good at that.

I agree - wait for the final analysis. However, apparently the Ethiopian authorities already have some data from the recorders, as seen in this NY Times article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/busi ... eport.html

As for Nader ....

[Thumper]

Not alot of info in that report. I've been watching this guy's reports and updates. He's a commercial pilot and I think retired military. He's a little stiff, but lots of good info. In this update, he's reading the actual preliminary report, and explaining some of the items, demonstrating others or showing photos that help us laymen better understand. Why the he|| don't the news talking heads watch guys like this before they start talking?

The pilots appeared to make the right call at one point. Then when they couldn't get the trim corrected manually, apparently turned the electric trim motors back on to try to adjust, MCAS took over again and doomed them. The pilots also lost track of their airspeed for the duration of the flight and that had terrible implications. It's heartbreaking.

In the voluminous viewer comments (which are generally hideous, but for this guy there's a bunch of good information and speculation) one person brought up something I had not heard yet. It sure looks like the MCAS system gets its input from a single AoA sensor (which I think we're all agreeing is not good redundancy programming). But this sensor switches each flight cycle. Pilot side one flight, FO side the next flight and so on. In the Lion Air crash, the pilot side AoA sensor gave erroneous data and MCAS pitched the nose down. A third pilot in the jump seat recognized the problem, they cut out the stab trim motors and landed the plane. They reported it to maintenance who ran a test operation on the system. However MCAS at the end of that flight sequence had switched to reading the FO's AoA sensor. Maintenance crew said they could not replicate the problem, and signed off allowing the plane to return to flight status. MCAS considered this another flight sequence and switched again to the pilot AoA sensor. The plane took off, MCAS reacted to the faulty AoA data and pitched the plane down. This time the pilots were unable to figure it out. If that's true, it's doubly heartbreaking. There was a chance to save the first plane, and hopefully then recognize the issue before the second plane even flew.

But like I said, I only read this info in a Youtube viewer comment. If anyone has the time, Juan does an absolute excellent job explaining the issues and the facts as they come in. He's got at least three videos about the MAX, this one was posted yesterday. Another great source of accurate info is from Mentour Pilot. You can search his youtube videos as well.

[Thumper]

And I feel like an absolute hypocrite. SciFi Chick used to post youtube links to bolster her arguments and I belittled them saying that youtube wasn't good for anything but music and cat videos. I now use it for everything. I think just diagnosed a problem I've been having with my Subaru watching it. I should email her an apology.

[geonuc]

Not alot of info in that report. I've been watching this guy's reports and updates. He's a commercial pilot and I think retired military. He's a little stiff, but lots of good info. In this update, he's reading the actual preliminary report, and explaining some of the items, demonstrating others or showing photos that help us laymen better understand. Why the he|| don't the news talking heads watch guys like this before they start talking?

The pilots appeared to make the right call at one point. Then when they couldn't get the trim corrected manually, apparently turned the electric trim motors back on to try to adjust, MCAS took over again and doomed them. The pilots also lost track of their airspeed for the duration of the flight and that had terrible implications. It's heartbreaking.

In the voluminous viewer comments (which are generally hideous, but for this guy there's a bunch of good information and speculation) one person brought up something I had not heard yet. It sure looks like the MCAS system gets its input from a single AoA sensor (which I think we're all agreeing is not good redundancy programming). But this sensor switches each flight cycle. Pilot side one flight, FO side the next flight and so on. In the Lion Air crash, the pilot side AoA sensor gave erroneous data and MCAS pitched the nose down. A third pilot in the jump seat recognized the problem, they cut out the stab trim motors and landed the plane. They reported it to maintenance who ran a test operation on the system. However MCAS at the end of that flight sequence had switched to reading the FO's AoA sensor. Maintenance crew said they could not replicate the problem, and signed off allowing the plane to return to flight status. MCAS considered this another flight sequence and switched again to the pilot AoA sensor. The plane took off, MCAS reacted to the faulty AoA data and pitched the plane down. This time the pilots were unable to figure it out. If that's true, it's doubly heartbreaking. There was a chance to save the first plane, and hopefully then recognize the issue before the second plane even flew.

But like I said, I only read this info in a Youtube viewer comment. If anyone has the time, Juan does an absolute excellent job explaining the issues and the facts as they come in. He's got at least three videos about the MAX, this one was posted yesterday. Another great source of accurate info is from Mentour Pilot. You can search his youtube videos as well.

I watched that first video you linked. Good information - the guy does a great job explaining stuff. And yeah, seems like the maintenance folks had an opportunity to diagnose this problem.

[geonuc]

And I feel like an absolute hypocrite. SciFi Chick used to post youtube links to bolster her arguments and I belittled them saying that youtube wasn't good for anything but music and cat videos. I now use it for everything. I think just diagnosed a problem I've been having with my Subaru watching it. I should email her an apology.

Yes, you were always wrong about YouTube. It's also good for golf lessons.

SFC, by the way, has entered a period of disengagement with social media, based on her last Facebook posts. I'm sure she'll return eventually.

[Thumper]

And I feel like an absolute hypocrite. SciFi Chick used to post youtube links to bolster her arguments and I belittled them saying that youtube wasn't good for anything but music and cat videos. I now use it for everything. I think just diagnosed a problem I've been having with my Subaru watching it. I should email her an apology.

Yes, you were always wrong about YouTube. It's also good for golf lessons.

SFC, by the way, has entered a period of disengagement with social media, based on her last Facebook posts. I'm sure she'll return eventually.

I emailed her a while back. We caught up a little. Seems like they were doing a little better. That was good to hear.

[geonuc]

There's a lively thread on Cosmoquest (BAUT) discussing this topic. Mostly a bunch of folks who don't know what they're talking about yet speculating as if they were experts. Unfortunately. it's a common theme on CQ which is why I usually don't get too involved. Several of the commenters (one in particular but I won't name names) have a history of not accepting that they may be wrong on some point, however minor. Reading how the pilots should have done this with MCAS, or done that, or how Boeing should have designed it, makes me shake my head and walk away from the keyboard.

[SciFiFisher]

And I feel like an absolute hypocrite. SciFi Chick used to post youtube links to bolster her arguments and I belittled them saying that youtube wasn't good for anything but music and cat videos. I now use it for everything. I think just diagnosed a problem I've been having with my Subaru watching it. I should email her an apology.

Yes, you were always wrong about YouTube. It's also good for golf lessons.

SFC, by the way, has entered a period of disengagement with social media, based on her last Facebook posts. I'm sure she'll return eventually.

I emailed her a while back. We caught up a little. Seems like they were doing a little better. That was good to hear.

She is trying not to talk much about politics. With varied degrees of success. At least on FB.

[SciFiFisher]

There's a lively thread on Cosmoquest (BAUT) discussing this topic. Mostly a bunch of folks who don't know what they're talking about yet speculating as if they were experts. Unfortunately. it's a common theme on CQ which is why I usually don't get too involved. Several of the commenters (one in particular but I won't name names) have a history of not accepting that they may be wrong on some point, however minor. Reading how the pilots should have done this with MCAS, or done that, or how Boeing should have designed it, makes me shake my head and walk away from the keyboard.

You just described most of my challenges with the internet.

[Thumper]

I was going to say, I don't think that type of behavior is limited to Cosmoquest...
Airline crashes are complicated, often with many many factors. I'm trying myself not to fall into the "I know everything about the subject" category. I have faith that the investigators will thoroughly discover all of the issues and make the proper recommendations.

[geonuc]

There's a lively thread on Cosmoquest (BAUT) discussing this topic. Mostly a bunch of folks who don't know what they're talking about yet speculating as if they were experts. Unfortunately. it's a common theme on CQ which is why I usually don't get too involved. Several of the commenters (one in particular but I won't name names) have a history of not accepting that they may be wrong on some point, however minor. Reading how the pilots should have done this with MCAS, or done that, or how Boeing should have designed it, makes me shake my head and walk away from the keyboard.

You just described most of my challenges with the internet.

Most of everyone's challenges ...

[geonuc]

I was going to say, I don't think that type of behavior is limited to Cosmoquest...
Airline crashes are complicated, often with many many factors. I'm trying myself not to fall into the "I know everything about the subject" category. I have faith that the investigators will thoroughly discover all of the issues and make the proper recommendations.

Indeed.

I'm reminded of a recent thread on a Facebook food forum. One member posted something about ketchup and said it's horrible stuff because it's 95% corn syrup. Obviously, it's not and another member posted the label of a Heinz bottle and proceeded to characterize what is and isn't in the ketchup. Some other members challenged her with some rather faulty math. Then yet another member told us all that the person who posted the label was a professional nutritionist, teaches nutrition and in fact won Oregon Teacher of the Year award one year. That shut up some of the naysayers but not all. For my part, I asked the nutritionist to give us her take on HFCS and sugar in general. Because, she's an expert and while experts may disagree, I'm one to listen to experts over those who can't do simple arithmetic.

[Thumper]

Your question sounds reasonable and totally out of character with the majority of internet users...

Come to think if it, I could use a refresher lesson on the pros and cons of HFCS and hydrogenated oils.

[geonuc]

Your question sounds reasonable and totally out of character with the majority of internet users...

Come to think if it, I could use a refresher lesson on the pros and cons of HFCS and hydrogenated oils.

I should spend time on some of my military Facebook groups to properly re-educate myself on internet protocols! Not.

Sadly, the nutritionist didn't respond to my request even though I have seen at least one subsequent unrelated post from her. In reviewing her post history, I fear she may be a somewhat cranky expert.

[Thumper]

Latest update from Juan Browne. Not alot of new information from the last link of his I posted. Some clarifications and he ran through some posted flight crew procedures. Both the the established procedures, and the addendums Boeing sent out after the Lion Air crash. If I do searches for this plane or this crash, I'm still inundated with articles titled, "Crew of doomed plane followed all Boeing procedures, plane still crashed." He's holding the preliminary report right there. That statement is false. Whoever keeps making that statement either has no idea what they are talking about, or worse, are lying. That does not help the investigation, and misleads the public, Congress, and others who may have influence over this issue and soon be making decisions. It's very irritating.

[Rommie]

I was going to say, I don't think that type of behavior is limited to Cosmoquest...
Airline crashes are complicated, often with many many factors. I'm trying myself not to fall into the "I know everything about the subject" category. I have faith that the investigators will thoroughly discover all of the issues and make the proper recommendations.

Indeed.

I'm reminded of a recent thread on a Facebook food forum. One member posted something about ketchup and said it's horrible stuff because it's 95% corn syrup. Obviously, it's not and another member posted the label of a Heinz bottle and proceeded to characterize what is and isn't in the ketchup. Some other members challenged her with some rather faulty math. Then yet another member told us all that the person who posted the label was a professional nutritionist, teaches nutrition and in fact won Oregon Teacher of the Year award one year. That shut up some of the naysayers but not all. For my part, I asked the nutritionist to give us her take on HFCS and sugar in general. Because, she's an expert and while experts may disagree, I'm one to listen to experts over those who can't do simple arithmetic.

You can't outline all that and leave us hanging!

[geonuc]

I was going to say, I don't think that type of behavior is limited to Cosmoquest...
Airline crashes are complicated, often with many many factors. I'm trying myself not to fall into the "I know everything about the subject" category. I have faith that the investigators will thoroughly discover all of the issues and make the proper recommendations.

Indeed.

I'm reminded of a recent thread on a Facebook food forum. One member posted something about ketchup and said it's horrible stuff because it's 95% corn syrup. Obviously, it's not and another member posted the label of a Heinz bottle and proceeded to characterize what is and isn't in the ketchup. Some other members challenged her with some rather faulty math. Then yet another member told us all that the person who posted the label was a professional nutritionist, teaches nutrition and in fact won Oregon Teacher of the Year award one year. That shut up some of the naysayers but not all. For my part, I asked the nutritionist to give us her take on HFCS and sugar in general. Because, she's an expert and while experts may disagree, I'm one to listen to experts over those who can't do simple arithmetic.

You can't outline all that and leave us hanging!

Not sure what more is to be said. Plus, you know, I wouldn't want to derail a FWIS thread even further.

[Rommie]

I was going to say, I don't think that type of behavior is limited to Cosmoquest...
Airline crashes are complicated, often with many many factors. I'm trying myself not to fall into the "I know everything about the subject" category. I have faith that the investigators will thoroughly discover all of the issues and make the proper recommendations.

Indeed.

I'm reminded of a recent thread on a Facebook food forum. One member posted something about ketchup and said it's horrible stuff because it's 95% corn syrup. Obviously, it's not and another member posted the label of a Heinz bottle and proceeded to characterize what is and isn't in the ketchup. Some other members challenged her with some rather faulty math. Then yet another member told us all that the person who posted the label was a professional nutritionist, teaches nutrition and in fact won Oregon Teacher of the Year award one year. That shut up some of the naysayers but not all. For my part, I asked the nutritionist to give us her take on HFCS and sugar in general. Because, she's an expert and while experts may disagree, I'm one to listen to experts over those who can't do simple arithmetic.

You can't outline all that and leave us hanging!

Not sure what more is to be said. Plus, you know, I wouldn't want to derail a FWIS thread even further.

I meant what she thought of HFCS, but ok.

[geonuc]

I was going to say, I don't think that type of behavior is limited to Cosmoquest...
Airline crashes are complicated, often with many many factors. I'm trying myself not to fall into the "I know everything about the subject" category. I have faith that the investigators will thoroughly discover all of the issues and make the proper recommendations.

Indeed.

I'm reminded of a recent thread on a Facebook food forum. One member posted something about ketchup and said it's horrible stuff because it's 95% corn syrup. Obviously, it's not and another member posted the label of a Heinz bottle and proceeded to characterize what is and isn't in the ketchup. Some other members challenged her with some rather faulty math. Then yet another member told us all that the person who posted the label was a professional nutritionist, teaches nutrition and in fact won Oregon Teacher of the Year award one year. That shut up some of the naysayers but not all. For my part, I asked the nutritionist to give us her take on HFCS and sugar in general. Because, she's an expert and while experts may disagree, I'm one to listen to experts over those who can't do simple arithmetic.

You can't outline all that and leave us hanging!

Not sure what more is to be said. Plus, you know, I wouldn't want to derail a FWIS thread even further.

I meant what she thought of HFCS, but ok.

Ah. I mentioned earlier that she didn't respond to me. She seems to be cranky.

[Thumper]

Juan outlines the changes Boeing is making to MCAS.
Some good points and a good question as to why MCAS wasn't designed and implemented like this in the first place. He also talks about the importance of pilots maintaining hand flying proficiency.

[Thumper]

The latest update with changes to the displays, timelines, costs, and some analysis on the recent statements by Boeing's CEO.

My favorite quote: It will not be the bean counters at Boeing that will restore the public's confidence in the 737 MAX. It will be the pilots who fly the planes and demonstrate that they trust the aircraft.

[SciFiFisher]

Thanks for the update.