Impeachment

[Rommie]

So I'll admit, a week ago I wouldn't have thought the impeachment inquiry was going to open today, if ever.

That said, I do believe if you don't go through with it by the point you learn the president was trying to extort a foreign leader to investigate a political opponent with $250 million of taxpayer money, you basically never would again. Even if the Senate won't convict, you have to do it.

[SciFiFisher]

Yes, it seems that the House and Pelosi were finally forced to concede that they needed to open Impeachment proceedings. Of course, with the way this administration drags out every single request for information the investigation is probably going to be a long painful one. It may help if the House starts actually leveling contempt charges and fining people as well as having them locked up. Historically, they have been very reluctant to actually jail people. But, these are not ordinary times.

[squ1d]

So funny seeing Boris & Trump headlining news today.

Big symbolic battle going on between "opinion vs fact", "what I feel like doing vs rule of law", etc. Important to the Western world to get it right, or this will be a landmark historical moment where these powers lost all moral legitimacy, even by their own standards.

Which is of course what Russia and China would like to see.

[SciFiFisher]

An interesting article on Foreign Affairs today that details the rise of polarization in the world. The U.S. version is somewhat different than the rest of the world. Ours grew out of the population from the bottom up. Most others grew from the top down. They claim Trump is a symptom/user/abuser of the current polarization in the U.S. and that removing him won't necessarily cure the problem.

[pumpkinpi]

Yes, it seems that the House and Pelosi were finally forced to concede that they needed to open Impeachment proceedings. Of course, with the way this administration drags out every single request for information the investigation is probably going to be a long painful one. It may help if the House starts actually leveling contempt charges and fining people as well as having them locked up. Historically, they have been very reluctant to actually jail people. But, these are not ordinary times.

I'm not optimistic that this would lead to getting him out of office any time soon, but the first time I'm actually hopeful that he's done something to lose voters and he won't get reelected.

[lady_*nix]

Yeah, I'm... also extremely pessimistic about where this impeachment inquiry will go, and suspect he'll get reelected in 2020.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, I guess? I probably wouldn't survive "the worst" myself, but you never know (and it's always worth trying to blunt the impact).

[SciFiFisher]

An interesting twist: Both houses of congress voted unanimously to demand the Whistleblower complaint and the IG report be handed over to Congress. I don't expect that to signal that the Republicans have finally decided to pull their heads out of their 4th point of contact but I do find it mildly encouraging.

[lady_*nix]

Honestly, the cynic in me says that if McConnell and company are ready to ditch Trump, it's because (as far as they're concerned) Trump has achieved his maximum usefulness. Which isn't impossible seeing how they now dominate the Supreme Court.

But, the cynic in me also thinks they are probably not ready to ditch him, and are just doing more keeping-up-appearances stuff. We'll see I guess.

Edit: basically I'm skeptical of any explanation that involves Trump-aligned Senate Republicans having conscience or sense of propriety.

[Rommie]

The cynic in me does think if they believe he can't win the presidency, they'd kick him out for Pence in hopes that people will be so relieved it's not Trump that they'll vote for him instead.

I also still think of my brother's prediction that Trump will be the first president in history who is impeached, yet gets re-elected.

Meanwhile, my husband keeps me in a play by play of the big scandal in Dutch politics, where one of their ministers was caught on an interview not wearing a seat belt in a car and brushed it off, so his party made him pay a symbolic fine. Oh man...

[SciFiFisher]

The only way the GOP is ditching Trump is if the base turns on him. Which could happen. The Trump effect has been too obvious in too many state elections for the GOP to ignore. In a way, the Republicans are guilty of the same thing most of us are. Too terrified of losing their livelihood to speak up and demonstrate moral courage. Add a dose of the rabid mob that goes after people with death threats and more and you have a perfect formula for how 20% of the group take over.

And it doesn't help that 50% of the people believe it doesn't matter if they vote or try to hold people accountable.

The only way the GOP and the base are ditching Trump is if he falls into a coma or dies of a massive heart attack. Because if they didn't ditch him after he confessed to being a sexual predator, a liar, and a treasonous moron they sure AF won't ditch him for a liddle' old fashioned election rigging.

[Rommie]

For sure. I think the fascinating thing about the obsession about "The Base" is there's no reason to assume they are as important as they are. They've literally always been a minority. But I think ultimately they are the only way the GOP realized they could win without actually doing any internal structural changes, so they'd rather pander to that minority than change things.

I guess the part that drives me bonkers are all the Republican voters I know who vehemently dislike the base, and their Republicanism is independent of them. Have I got news for you, mister...

[geonuc]

..Because if they didn't ditch him after he confessed to being a sexual predator, a liar, and a treasonous moron they sure AF won't ditch him for a liddle' old fashioned election rigging.

LOL. I see what you did there.

[Sigma_Orionis]

For sure. I think the fascinating thing about the obsession about "The Base" is there's no reason to assume they are as important as they are. They've literally always been a minority. But I think ultimately they are the only way the GOP realized they could win without actually doing any internal structural changes, so they'd rather pander to that minority than change things.

I guess the part that drives me bonkers are all the Republican voters I know who vehemently dislike the base, and their Republicanism is independent of them. Have I got news for you, mister...

They sound like that cliche about alcoholics who refuse to admit they're addicted "I can stop at anytime".

[SciFiFisher]

For sure. I think the fascinating thing about the obsession about "The Base" is there's no reason to assume they are as important as they are. They've literally always been a minority. But I think ultimately they are the only way the GOP realized they could win without actually doing any internal structural changes, so they'd rather pander to that minority than change things.

I guess the part that drives me bonkers are all the Republican voters I know who vehemently dislike the base, and their Republicanism is independent of them. Have I got news for you, mister...

They sound like that cliche about alcoholics who refuse to admit they're addicted "I can stop at anytime".

Yep. "I am totally in control of this shit show." Famous last words of the German Weirmar government. An interesting quote from just before Hitler seized total power.

It is a hopeless misjudgment to think that one could force a dictatorial regime upon the German nation. [...] The diversity of the German people calls for democracy.

— Theodor Wolff in Frankfurter Zeitung, Jan 1933

[Sigma_Orionis]

Exhibit A

This NY Times piece mentions one Charles Murray, that says the following

Charles Murray, a political scientist affiliated with the American Enterprise Institute and the author of “Coming Apart,” believes that Trump is

a malignant narcissist, which includes as symptoms some of the most unattractive qualities that human beings can have. He also exhibits textbook traits of mental decline that have worsened measurably over the last three years. I find in him no evidence of redeeming traits — no instance of loyalty to a friend in trouble or of unconditional generosity. I despise him and think he is unfit to be president.

Despite that, Murray continued, “it is also quite possible that I will find myself voting for him next year.” The conservative scholar said he approves of many of the things that have happened during the Trump years — especially “the judges he has appointed and the steps to roll back stupid and obstructive regulations. I also think that the nation needs to control its borders and limit low-skill immigration.”

While Joe Biden might be an acceptable choice, in Murray’s view, “a Warren or Sanders presidency would be a disaster for the nation.”

Murray concluded:

So there you have it: I despise the man, worry that he will make terrible foreign policy blunders, but from my perspective policies under Trump are vastly superior to the policies that would be pursued by the leading Democratic candidates. It’s a Hobson’s choice.

That, IMHO, describes Republicans who claim not to support Trump to a T.

[Rommie]

Yeah. I've heard that many, many times before in person unfortunately.

[SciFiFisher]

Apparently, these people have a totally different concept of ethical behavior and the rule of law than I do.

[geonuc]

The idea that policies are what matters, not the person, is something I've endorsed. So I can tolerate a Republican who despises Trump but likes where the nation is going.

It's a little like folks who point out that Bill Clinton was person with somewhat loose morals (nowhere near as loose as the Mango Mussolini's, mind you). My response is always: I don't give a shit who he fucked in the White House or how many times Hillary had to defend him while holding nose. His policies were smart and good for the nation, and the world.

[lady_*nix]

The idea that policies are what matters, not the person, is something I've endorsed. So I can tolerate a Republican who despises Trump but likes where the nation is going.

It's a little like folks who point out that Bill Clinton was person with somewhat loose morals (nowhere near as loose as the Mango Mussolini's, mind you). My response is always: I don't give a shit who he fucked in the White House or how many times Hillary had to defend him while holding nose. His policies were smart and good for the nation, and the world.

I have to vehemently disagree with every single sentence of this, to be honest.

[Loresinger]

The idea that policies are what matters, not the person, is something I've endorsed. So I can tolerate a Republican who despises Trump but likes where the nation is going.

It's a little like folks who point out that Bill Clinton was person with somewhat loose morals (nowhere near as loose as the Mango Mussolini's, mind you). My response is always: I don't give a shit who he fucked in the White House or how many times Hillary had to defend him while holding nose. His policies were smart and good for the nation, and the world.

I think there is some value to focusing on policies but we have to remember that a person's ethics can (and do) drive many of those policies. It depends on how well a person can separate personal and professional, politics vs. national good etc. 45 obviously sucks at it all

[SciFiFisher]

It seems that the people at the local level may be starting to question the unwavering support for Trump. This video clip shows a constituent asking Senator Joni Ernst "Where is the line". Needless to say, she refuses to answer the question by suggesting that she has no control over Trump.

Until enough voters signal they won't punish Republicans who stand up to Trump this is pretty much what we can expect from the spineless and the lickspittles.

[Sigma_Orionis]

And yet....

Exhibit B

[lady_*nix]

@Sigma

I wouldn't be surprised if Senate Republicans would rather support an autocracy like Turkey just on principle; vs. one of the few forces in the region that is, like, known for being democratic and positive towards women. Erdogan is a lot closer to what they represent ideologically.

Edit: they might still be chicken to state this too openly, though, even if it's the same shit the US has been doing since the 50s.

[SciFiFisher]

MSNBC was talking today about a poll that showed 18% of Republicans favor impeaching and removing Trump from office. That is an unprecedented number considering that just a few weeks ago they had polls showing he had 70-90% of Republicans who were very happy with him. I am a bit skeptical about polls in general but this may be signaling that he is starting to lose his base.

There was another article that highlighted a farmer who was reporting that he had lost over $400,000 to Trump's tariffs and was very unhappy with Trump. I have to wonder if they are really getting mad enough to vote against him in an election? Or if they are just complaining because they can?

[Sigma_Orionis]

@Sigma

I wouldn't be surprised if Senate Republicans would rather support an autocracy like Turkey just on principle; vs. one of the few forces in the region that is, like, known for being democratic and positive towards women. Erdogan is a lot closer to what they represent ideologically.

Edit: they might still be chicken to state this too openly, though, even if it's the same shit the US has been doing since the 50s.

I've seen several instances where Republicans at the state level (North Carolina comes to mind) behave just like Chavistas here. Behaving like they're terrified of losing power. I think Chavistas are terrified because of all the supposed links they have with Drug Traffickers. As for your Republicans. If they are justifying their behaviour because they think that "Liberals" are going to turn your country into something akin to mine, I think they're full of shit,.They are becoming the same thing they claim to be fighting. Which ironically is the same thing I think your actual "left wing nutjobs" (and I'll gleefully paint anybody from the DSA or further left like Code Pink, with that description) are when they claim to be supporting Maduro down here. Just goes to show that Authoritarianism and Ideological rigidity are independent of actual ideology.