Ukraine

[Sigma_Orionis]

That's entirely fair, Sigma, but IDK what to tell you; other than that fighting for my own right to exist sometimes requires working alongside shitty people, and hoping I have enough friends to overrule them once our coalition has won. Realpolitik is sadly as much a thing on the left as on the right, and I would personally rather work with ivory tower DSA ignoramuses than with Stalinist PSL fucks who'd love to throw me in a gulag, or with Democratic party apparatchiks who think mass homelessness is an acceptable reality. In the imperial core as in Venezuela, we don't always get the allies we'd like.

Understood. If the DSA is not as monolithic as I think they are, that's a good thing. As for Realpolitik: Sure. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Particularly in international politics. I don't know about your case, but I know of at least one where "The Enemy of my Enemy is NOT my friend" was the smarter move: TRUMP. Not once through his presidency I trusted anything he did or said regarding Venezuela. Which, as usual, didn't bring me any friends down here. Because I knew pretty well that nothing he did was going to benefit us, just as it turned out. I spent years telling people here not get their hopes up. That all his bluster was just that: BLUSTER

[lady_*nix]

Thanks, Sigma. I'm glad you get it (and honestly I figured you would).

Re: enemy of my enemy. Oh hell yes. Allies are not friends to start with. And realpolitik aside, any latte-sipping brocialist slackwit who supports Putin's little army of rapists is not my friend, or any woman's. And it is my honest hope that there is a reckoning some day soon for those shmucks in DSA, and elsewhere.

"But LN, Ukraine has a Nazi problem..."

Yeah, so does Russia, and so does the US. Maybe put your heart with people in need rather than their nation-states... you know, like socialists are ostensibly supposed to. Ahem.

As for DSA's nonhomogeneity. Yeah, the US far left in general is pretty heterogeneous, and I think local DSA chapters tend to be a microcosm of that. I'm not going to claim there's no groupthink (Jesus Christ have you seen leftist Twitter?), but the bigger issuer is usually that we can never get our shit together and are constantly at each other's throats. So a group like Boston DSA that can get a bunch of loudly disagreeing weirdos under the same metaphorical roof, coordinating directly on the same issues, is kind of a big deal.

Likewise, the local chapters directly opposing the national org is a common story. There have been cases where the national org ignored election results, refused to boot out sexual harassers, and all kinds of other ugly stuff. I suspect the main things keeping a lot of chapters involved in it are bureaucratic inertia, and a desire to not reinvent the wheel.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Well, I am guessing that the US left is going at each other's throats because they have a similar issue that is happening to the US Democratic party which has opinion that runs the gamut from Manchin and Sinema's "Republican Lite" to ṕeople who find Senator Sanders' "Democratic Socialism" too wishy-washy for their taste. Exacerbated by the fact that despite it all most people in the US still have misgivings about left wing policies so they find it hard to get anything done. You'll have to excuse me. But the term "Socialism" has become so vague that ranges from people simply think it means having a social safety net similar to Scandinavian countries to die hard Stalinists.

I understand why in principle you find yourself attracted to what Socialists claim to stand for. And I don't doubt that a good number of them believe that. Here in Latin America, particularly in my country it's also understandable why lots of people are attracted to Socialism. Our societies are still Feudal and we as a culture are quite authoritarian. Apparently, here in Venezuela were even more authoritarian than the rest of Latin America. There is a quote by Bolivar (you know. the equivalent of George Washington here) that says "Colombia is a University, Ecuador is a Convent. Venezuela is a Barracks". That should tell you all you need to know about authoritarianism around here. My point being that I understand why a lot of people are attracted to Socialism. However the implementation has been a disaster everywhere. If you ask me, the perfect place for a Socialist government was here: A population that leans left (all our governments since 1958 have been center-left at most), plenty of resources, no major problems with neighboring countries . And look at the disaster they've made: SPECIALLY after years of hearing foreign idiots heap praise on Chavez, Maduro and Chavistas in general. 20 years ago I could save for my old age. Nowadays, I'll have to work until the day I die and beg I don't get sick or have even a small emergency. My sister lost all her savings and her pension. Her husband doesn't make enough to eat. And we're the lucky ones. 90% of the country is worse than us. All "Socialist" or "Communist" (or whatever they call themselves) governments set up have ended up with a disaster of an economy and have become extremely authoritarian. So, just like "Conservatives" (whatever that means these days) in developed countries are quite guilty of tolerating people who practice ALL sorts of discrimination and for harboring con-men and nujobs of every possible sort. Socialists need to get rid of those "fellow travelers" that are authoritarians in disguise (you should hear Maduro spout BS about "Equity, Social Justice and Peace". How in hell can one believe one word of what he says when his actions are exactly the opposite?) . Wouldn't be surprised if the reason so much of the US left is at each other's neck had to do with that. In any case, every time I hear "Socialist" rhetoric, my blood pressure goes up.

[lady_*nix]

@Sigma

I mean I can dial down the leftist talking points if you want, and I agree with you that existing implementations of socialism are mostly shit. But IDK what else to tell you, dude. The situation in the US for most people might not be as bad as in Venezuela, but for the vast majority of people it still sucks. There is a reason that we have more COVID deaths per capita than any other nation on Earth. There is a reason we have greater prison population per capita than any other country, almost on the level of the USSR at its worst. And IDK exactly what I believe in politically, but it sure as shit isn't the unfettered capitalism that screams at people to get back to work when they can't even breathe room air, considers disabled people like me expendable unless we're "productive", etc. And it sure as shit isn't a pyramid with one human (always a man!) at the top, whether his opinions be "socialist", "capitalist", "third way", or whatever.

[Sigma_Orionis]

@Sigma

I mean I can dial down the leftist talking points if you want, and I agree with you that existing implementations of socialism are mostly shit. But IDK what else to tell you, dude. The situation in the US for most people might not be as bad as in Venezuela, but for the vast majority of people it still sucks. There is a reason that we have more COVID deaths per capita than any other nation on Earth. There is a reason we have greater prison population per capita than any other country, almost on the level of the USSR at its worst. And IDK exactly what I believe in politically, but it sure as shit isn't the unfettered capitalism that screams at people to get back to work when they can't even breathe room air, considers disabled people like me expendable unless we're "productive", etc. And it sure as shit isn't a pyramid with one human (always a man!) at the top, whether his opinions be "socialist", "capitalist", "third way", or whatever.

You dial down your talking points? Don't be silly The assholes at aporrea.org drive my blood pressure up. Sean Penn and Danny Glover drive my blood pressure up. The National DSA drives my blood pressure up, Mark Weisbrot drives my blood pressure up. Noam Chomsky drives my blood pressure up. Heinz Dieterich drives my blood pressure up. Jeremy "Idiot" Corbyn drives my blood pressure up. FUCKING Ken Livinsgtone drives my blood pressure up. PSFs in general drive my pressure up. NOT YOU. You know what really drives my pressure up? People so stuck in their damned ideology (yes that includes Religious Faith) that they use it as a goddamned calling card. That they think that saying "I'm a Christian" or "I'm a Socialist" or "I'm a Conservative" or "I'm a Moderate" is some sort of guarantee that they are more moral than you. And I strongly suspect that you can see where I am coming from

"Unfettered Capitalism" ([Pedantic Mode] The proper term is "Laissez Faire Economics". Thank you very much [/Pendatic Mode]) has never worked. If anything, it makes communism seem acceptable. So, you won't get any arguments from me.

[lady_*nix]

Thanks, and likewise. I def don't see eye to eye with you on politics, but I appreciate that you're coming from a place of Actually Having Seen Shit IRL, and your willingness to call me in on some of my stupider ventures into ideology.

And LOL, a lot of the guys you mention also piss me off, because they tend to be class reductionist, and also just... assholes. Sean Penn especially. I didn't know much about him, but last I checked he was defending MRA bullshit (see: https://variety.com/2022/film/news/sean ... 235166106/) and uh also it turned out he's a wifebeater? So yeah I hope a meteor hits his head or something.

For me add to that the whole Chapo Traphouse/Dirtbag Left crowd, Bernie supporters who view their guy as a savior, and anarcho-primitivists... ugh, anprims are the fucking worst. Ted Kaczinsky wasn't even a leftist you stupid fucks.

Red: economics

TBH I'd argue that in the big picture, even very well regulated capitalism doesn't work. e.g. the Nordic countries look great on paper, but their spin on social democracy wouldn't work so great if they didn't have developing world dictatorships to exploit resources from. (Plus they manage it in part by having a culture that's very hostile to weirdness/uniqueness, which feeds into enormous racism problems.) Plus a finite planet can't support endless growth regardless, and space colonization isn't the workaround that people think it is, for a lot of reasons. But at the end of the day I can't say what the best alternative would be, only that what we have now is unsustainable.

[lady_*nix]

Speaking of guys we can't stand...

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/14 ... 8629404681

Sergei Naryshkin, head of Russian foreign intelligence: "The masks are off. The West isn't simply trying to close off Russia behind a new iron curtain. This is about an attempt to ruin our government - to 'cancel' it, as they now say in "tolerant" liberal-fascist circles."

Paul Sonne apparently writes natsec stuff for the Washington Post, so I doubt he just made this up.[/quote]

The charitable interpretation is that he's deliberately using that language to appeal to the right wing in Europe and the Anglosphere. The less charitable interpretation is that he's completely serious, and this is an example of how fascism is international even though it's nationalistic. I'm gonna go with a bit of both myself, I think.

[Sigma_Orionis]

LN. Fascism has ALWAYS been an international problem. It was simply thought that it had been reduced to manageable levels. It's a well known fact that right wing authoritarians from all over the world have been cozying up with Putin's regime for several years now. So Naryshkin's comment was definitely aimed at them. Whether he is deluded enough to believe what he says or not, is really irrelevant. He is the head of the of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Office. Everything says has been carefully thought out several times.

I see you've noticed that in the so-called "Nordic Model", Scandinavian societies are pretty homogeneous. Which makes it easy to reach consensus. You ought to keep in mind that the vast majority of those developing world dictatorships became that on their own though. I should know. I live in one. We had several chances to leverage our mining resources and turn our country into something better. And we fucked up all those chances on our own. With no "help" from multinational corporations or foreign governments.

I don't think that regulated market economies are ideal. Just the ones the work the least badly. If you think the current situation in unsustainable, keep in mind that the others are worse. Thinking about it, one can argue that no society or economy in history has ever been sustainable. Of course, THAT is a lot more important these days than it was say... 100 years ago. As much as I dislike it. Global Warming is a scientific fact. And while there are plenty of interests in keeping things as they are or worse. There's also lots of work in trying to find ways to solve the mess we're in. AND SOMEONE IS PAYING FOR THAT. My point is that: we are what we are. Doesn't mean we can't be better though.

[Rommie]

Speaking of guys we can't stand...

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/14 ... 8629404681

Sergei Naryshkin, head of Russian foreign intelligence: "The masks are off. The West isn't simply trying to close off Russia behind a new iron curtain. This is about an attempt to ruin our government - to 'cancel' it, as they now say in "tolerant" liberal-fascist circles."

Paul Sonne apparently writes natsec stuff for the Washington Post, so I doubt he just made this up.

The charitable interpretation is that he's deliberately using that language to appeal to the right wing in Europe and the Anglosphere. The less charitable interpretation is that he's completely serious, and this is an example of how fascism is international even though it's nationalistic. I'm gonna go with a bit of both myself, I think.[/quote]

What I find funny about that quote is I sure as hell have heard more about canceling from the right than I ever heard from the left.

[Rommie]

There's reports that a lot of people in Russia are freaking out because they expect Putin to close the borders, and thousands are fleeing the country who can afford it right now. Like, get in your car in Moscow and drive to Estonia ASAP, because the rumors are it's gonna happen this weekend.

I'm not sure of the timing but to be completely honest is probably not the most irrational thing right now if you can afford to leave Russia- even if you didn't believe the war was unjust, anyone can see the economy is heading in a bad direction very quickly. And if we're heading back to the glory days of the USSR, one of the "glorious" things about it of course was how no one could leave it.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I'd say the reports are accurate

[lady_*nix]

@Sigma

Not what I meant by "fascism is international". What I meant is that one of the traits of fascism, and of totalitarian movements in general, is that adherents across the world will organize with each other even though they're nationalists. Probably in part because the unit fascism orients around is a "race", not a "country" - and you can see this to an extent with Stalinism as well, with the Soviets' attitudes towards Ukrainians, Jews, etc,

One of the things that happened in the lead up to WWII per Hannah Arendt's accounting, which is probably happening again now, is that police organizations in different European countries colluded with each other to support fascist movements and leaders. Things now would probably be more ad-hoc, but if you ask where e.g. US cops hang out online and who they're sharing those spaces with...

[lady_*nix]

@Rommie

I agree with Sigma, the reports are probably accurate. And TBH I'm unsurprised that this is Putin's war far more than the Russian public's, and glad that the media is actually covering that aspect instead of leaning into xenophobia.

[Sigma_Orionis]

@Sigma

Not what I meant by "fascism is international". What I meant is that one of the traits of fascism, and of totalitarian movements in general, is that adherents across the world will organize with each other even though they're nationalists. Probably in part because the unit fascism orients around is a "race", not a "country" - and you can see this to an extent with Stalinism as well, with the Soviets' attitudes towards Ukrainians, Jews, etc,

One of the things that happened in the lead up to WWII per Hannah Arendt's accounting, which is probably happening again now, is that police organizations in different European countries colluded with each other to support fascist movements and leaders. Things now would probably be more ad-hoc, but if you ask where e.g. US cops hang out online and who they're sharing those spaces with...

LN, I don't know why what you mean "with fascism is international" is any different. Back in the "Golden Days of Fascism" (i.e. the late 1930s) Hitler and Mussolini had admirers all over the world. Authoritarians love "strong leaders" (their definition of "strength" is pathetically wrong of course. But that is another matter). Hitler had plenty of admirers down here. That is why so many Nazis took refuge in these parts after WWII. In the case of Argentina, just take a look at this guy. Ironically, one of the largest and most influential Jewish communities in Latin America is based in Buenos Aires. Even more ironic: His political party still exists and is the largest left wing party in Argentina these days (and still authoritarian BTW). My maternal grandmother who was an admirer (And quite authoritarian. Just like her sister) of this real piece of work, used to tell me a story (probably apocryphal) about an acquaintance of hers that lived in Germany in the late 30s or during WWII. And one day, the Gestapo, barged into his house. Once they saw he kept a picture of General Gomez (the piece of work I just mentioned) they promptly apologized and left. My point being that what unites them is not necessarily "race", but their deluded admiration of "strength". Authoritarians maintain their enemies weak and their base subdued by keeping them divided. and to do so, they use Race, Religious Faith, Gender Orientation, OR whatever that works. Skin color is simply the easiest one because the difference is obvious. With the others you have to work harder, but they'll do. It's simply whatever the local conditions allow you to use to divide your enemies. Despite being a fascist sympathizer, Peron didn't use race, or religious faith or even nationality. He used class struggle. Probably, because the other things wouldn't have worked in Argentina. For example: My dad (who was another authoritarian) had a story from the days lived there. One day, he and my grandfather (who was a fascist sympathizer, how much of a sympathizer? he had a book called "Norms for Fascist living abroad", with a picture of Mussolini on the cover.) got on a tram car. Since almost all the seats were taken, My old man rode standing on the tram aisle and my grand father sat besides some asshole that kept opening his legs so much that my grandfather was getting crushed against the wall of the tram. When he got fed up and told the asshole to stop it. The asshole started calling my grandfather "damned foreigner". Before my father had a chance to get his hands on the idiot. Several people (about the same age as my dad) grabbed the said idiot by the collar of his suit and kicked him out of the tram. Apparently, three quarters of the people of Buenos Aires are descendants of immigrants. So, xenophobia probably wouldn't have worked. There were extremely few blacks. So skin color and race wasn't going to work either. And, like I said, the Jewish community was extremely influential in the city. So at least at first, religious intolerance wasn't going to cut it. So, Peron had to do the "class struggle thing". Because Argentina, like most of Latin America has a lot of economic inequality. THAT did the trick. Chavez did the same thing here. There is a difference nowadays with the 1930s though. Overt racism was a lot more acceptable in those days than now. Despite their best efforts, Race Supremacists in the west STILL have to be "discreet". Lastly, it's well known that at least in the US, Law Enforcement and even the Armed forces have too much tolerance for race supremacists.

[Sigma_Orionis]

What I find funny about that quote is I sure as hell have heard more about canceling from the right than I ever heard from the left.

Censuring others for doing what you do as well is a tactic that works if the victim is stupid or weak enough.

[lady_*nix]

@Sigma

Very good points there; I stand corrected re: race.

Edit: likewise re right wing hypocrisy. It's also a forthright demonstration of power - literally a demonstration that they can lie to your face, and contradict visible reality, without suffering any consequences. This makes it a useful propaganda weapon whether or not it's deliberate.

[Sigma_Orionis]

"“It’s no coincidence that Russia waited until 2022 to invade Ukraine,” Pence said, according to excerpts. “Weakness arouses evil, and the magnitude of evil sweeping across Ukraine speaks volumes about this president.”"

I am guessing that this is the official Republican Party line now

[Sigma_Orionis]

I'm guessing you're right LN.

Why Republicans may let Greene and Gosar's latest brushfire burn itself out

[lady_*nix]

@Sigma

Believe me, I'd love to be wrong about this for once. But yeah IMO it's part of their long term strategy, and has been for decades. The most rabid dogs in the Republican party serve to expand the Overton window further and further right, which increases the ability of the old guard to enrich themselves and maintain power; so the oldies hedge their bets by giving the nutcases as long a leash as possible. There's much to gain for them, and very little to lose.

See also: Weimar business leaders supporting Hitler... who did in fact make them huge amounts of money, what with the war, slave labor from the death camps, etc.

[SciFiFisher]

IDK I feel like when a big geopolitical thing like this happens that doesn't actually affect the USA, people project onto the administration whatever they feel about it. Like not aimed as a jab at you, just a general observation, my brother was on a rant earlier about how "this only happened because Putin saw Biden is weak!"

Trump was asked if the Russian invasion of Ukraine occurred under his administration, what he would do, but told Fox News Digital that he couldn’t say "right now."
"Well, I tell you what, I would do things, but the last thing I want to do is say it right now, because if somebody asks me that is in a position where they can utilize whatever it is I give them," Trump said. "But I certainly wouldn't want to be talking about it on television or to the media too much."

Biden weak? he might LOOK old and feeble. But that doesn't mean he is. If we're going to talk about weak leaders though, his precious Trump fits the bill perfectly. The Ukrainian comedian-turned-president that this cowardly worthless waste of DNA tried to bully two years ago has shown more statesmanship and courage in his pinky than this worthless piece of crap in all his useless mooching life. May he one day wake up in one of our slums alone and penniless. I'd be certainly running bets on how long he'd last...

If it wouldn't imply a total disaster I would love for him to wind up hiding in a hole and dragged into the light like the vermin he is.

[lady_*nix]

The news from Ukraine right now is just so sickening - the Russian military has been shelling an evacuation corridor, bombing a children's hospital, deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure with dumb munitions. Intelligence people are worried they're going to try chemical weapons soon.

TBH I suspect Putin is also committing atrocities as a deliberate way to test US and NATO limits - just seeing how much he can get away with, before other nations are willing to risk nuclear war in order to stop him. Just slaughtering people wholesale in order to measure and provoke his enemies. What even the fuck.

[Rommie]

I can already answer that, no one is going to nuke him until he really goes nuts and does it first, and perhaps not even then. That just escalates into WW3, and frankly is rather hypocritical to kill many thousands of civilians with any inevitable nuclear weapon strike to get someone to stop killing other civilians.

I disagree mightily with the idea that nothing is being done though. The coordination amongst nations to give arms and do sanctions against Russia are unprecedented in history, and frankly the economic stuff is as big as an act of war even if you can't really show it with a flash and bang on a TV screen.

It obviously still really sucks all around though.

[Sigma_Orionis]

They've been playing that gruesome "game" for the last week. They agree to a ceasefire to let civilians evacuate and then they start shelling shortly afterwards

I've read that Putin would need 500,000 soldiers to effectively occupy Ukraine should it fall. The Russian Army has 900,000 people. So, he'd have to deploy more than half his army to "keep the peace" (so to speak ) in Ukraine. Additionally, this war has exposed some pretty big weaknesses in the Russian Military. Their logistics and coordination are pathetic. So, unless he starts actually using WMD, his only hope of taking Ukraine lies in pounding the hell out of all major cities until they collapse and crush the Ukrainians' resolve. He's done this before. In Chechnya, in Georgia and in Syria. I don't know what will happen if he starts using chemical weapons, or cluster bombs (as I write, the UK is claiming that Russia has admitted to using thermobaric bombs). But for now, he seems pretty confident that he can kill civilians indiscriminately without the West stepping in.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Looks like Orban is speaking with a forked tongue....

Hungary has become the EU home of Kremlin talking points

[Rommie]

Is there a word for when you're not at all surprised but still very disappointed?

So thinking about it further, and hearing someone mention it on the radio, I will agree that the serious concern right now is not the use of a nuclear weapon but of some other chemical attack. Russia clearly has no qualms of doing so (see: how they've dealt with some state enemies), and apparently there's an increase of mentioning Ukraine doing so on Russian state media, which we all know is the home of projecting.

I hope we're wrong.